Fram Ultra Efficiency @ 10 Microns

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There's a good reason the OEM filter efficiency isn't usually advertised. One guess why.


Is it because its irrelevant?

Surely you aren't of the opinion that there's a conspiracy to deliberately shorten the lifespan of engines?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There's a good reason the OEM filter efficiency isn't usually advertised. One guess why.


Is it because its irrelevant?

Surely you aren't of the opinion that there's a conspiracy to deliberately shorten the lifespan of engines?


Never said there was a conspiracy. They know if they published filtering specs that it wouldn't look good compared to aftermarket. A lot of people want high efficiency filters. Make your own conclusions based on that.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There's a good reason the OEM filter efficiency isn't usually advertised. One guess why.


Is it because its irrelevant?

Surely you aren't of the opinion that there's a conspiracy to deliberately shorten the lifespan of engines?


Yes, I am. My evidence is the lack of an API or ASTM specification for a cleanliness standard for new oil. I'm not going to waste pounding on the keyboard what all I've done to research my claim; all anyone has to do to call me out on this is post an ASTM or API specification number. Opinions are as good as rectums.

I won't hold my breath; but read Shannow's post about "stinky Peterson" p2 about 1/2 way down here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3533589/2

BTW, 94% efficiency is a joke; not even a beta 20, I'd say slightly above screen door wire.

 

[kschachn]

So specifically, the use of low efficiency oil filters by the OEM is a conspiracy to reduce the overall lifespan of the automaker's engines? Only asking because you kind of wandered off into the cleanliness of new oil. Agreed that may contribute but my comment was directed to the OEM filter efficiencies.

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Yes, I am. My evidence is the lack of an API or ASTM specification for a cleanliness standard for new oil. I'm not going to waste pounding on the keyboard what all I've done to research my claim; all anyone has to do to call me out on this is post an ASTM or API specification number. Opinions are as good as rectums.

I won't hold my breath; but read Shannow's post about "stinky Peterson" p2 about 1/2 way down here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3533589/2

BTW, 94% efficiency is a joke; not even a beta 20, I'd say slightly above screen door wire.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
At bypass the efficiency fall down to the floor, circulating lots of dirt.


No, there isn't "Lots". Maybe a very tiny amount at best.

Even if a filter is in "bypass", there is STILL oil flowing through the element.
The ONLY time a filter goes into 100% bypass is if the element is 100% clogged.(severe abuse)

If you want to see LOTS of dirt getting circulated, look at the oil "filter" (screen) in a Type 1 Volkswagen engine. I have one 1500cc single port that's 40 years old and all it has ever had its whole life is that silly sump screen.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
OEM are better IMO since the more the efficiency of the filter, it get more bypass burst at high pressure differential, specially for colder short trippers and spirited drivers. At bypass the efficiency fall down to the floor, circulating lots of dirt.


Have you rigged up your engine to measure delta-p to verify that? Read this thread ... it's pretty rare to get the oil filter to bypass unless your really revving high in freezing weather with cold oil.

Filter Bypass Testing by Jim Allen


Every 1st startup of the day (cold) it opens, as design, wot at cold, sure, those aren't rare enough for me.
And

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
YES! Real data! Mmmmmmmmm - I like it.

Thank you, Jim, for the expense and efforts; this is useful info.

As Jim would note, this test is not all encompassing; it's only one unique engine/gage set up. These results may not be relevant for every other motor/lube/filter combo out there. But ... It's WAY better than the conjecture and opinionated rhetoric we've seen to date.

Regardless of how many times the filter goes into bypass (which really is not often, and represents very small fractions of time overall relative to the event), Jim also has data to show that his engine and lube are in good shape (UOAs). Together, we can draw some inferences together which suggest that worrying over filter media and lube is a fools errand. Even with a non-spec'd lube, the bypass events were reasonably minor.

More data, please! Keep those experiments running.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
One thing I would say is that the Royal Purple filter is not anywhere near a "poor performing" filter by any measure. In fact it is quite a bit better than the OEM filter in terms of efficiency.

Agreed; there are a lot of things to like about the RP filter. They're not easy to find up here, though.

Ironically, I could probably go out of my way and get them significantly cheaper than the Wix XP!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
At bypass the efficiency fall down to the floor, circulating lots of dirt.


No, there isn't "Lots". Maybe a very tiny amount at best.

Even if a filter is in "bypass", there is STILL oil flowing through the element.
The ONLY time a filter goes into 100% bypass is if the element is 100% clogged.(severe abuse)


Not totally true. The bypass valve opens when the delta-p exceeds the bypass valve setting. That can also happen if the oil if very cold and thick, and the engine revs are really high ... even if the filter is nowhere near clogged.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
OEM are better IMO since the more the efficiency of the filter, it get more bypass burst at high pressure differential, specially for colder short trippers and spirited drivers. At bypass the efficiency fall down to the floor, circulating lots of dirt.


Have you rigged up your engine to measure delta-p to verify that? Read this thread ... it's pretty rare to get the oil filter to bypass unless your really revving high in freezing weather with cold oil.

Filter Bypass Testing by Jim Allen


Every 1st startup of the day (cold) it opens, as design, wot at cold, sure, those aren't rare enough for me.


It all depends on just how "cold" it is, and how thick the oil is and how high you're revving the engine before the oil starts to warm up. I wouldn't go as far as claiming it happened "every 1st startup of the day".

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


Not totally true. The bypass valve opens when the delta-p exceeds the bypass valve setting. That can also happen if the oil if very cold and thick, and the engine revs are really high ... even if the filter is nowhere near clogged.


But, How much?
"Flow rate" and "Delta-P" are two different measurements.

Volume vs. Pressure.

I stand by what I said: 100% plugged = 100% bypass flow rate (not considering Delta-P for a second)
Anything less than 100 is 70/30, 40/60/ 50/50, 95/5, etc. etc. etc.

With a "less-than-plugged filter", anytime PSI exceeds Delta-P = some oil is still flowing through the element, and less than 100% is being bypassed. The only time you see 100% bypass (flow function, not pressure) is when there is 0% element flow (which is rare).

We just have no idea what the "percentages" are.

Even some cold oil flows through the element (just very slowly) and at High RPM - ONLY THE AMOUNT EXCEEDING element flow rate (regardless of pressure) will bypass...

With hot & thin oil, it will be what, 10%? 20%? No one knows, since although the oil might be hot and thin, "system flow rate" still exceeds "element flow rate" if in "bypass".

For the sake of an argument:
If a bypass valve opens at exactly 8.000 PSI and the current Delta-P is 8.002 PSI, then more than 99.5% of oil is still flowing through the element. If operating Delta-P is 7.999 PSI, then the valve is closed and 100% of the oil is flowing through the element.

The big question that can't be answered is "how much" oil is flowing through the bypass valve once 8.000 psi is exceeded - - and it's impossible to determine without some type of linear indicating instrument that can measure travel, which may correspond to bypass valve flow rate.

The only other way would be if you KNEW what the spring rate and surface area of the bypass valve were,
you **might** be able to calculate it.
For instance, 8.100 PSI Delta-P equals 1 quart a minute bypass,
8.400 PSI Delta-P equals 1 gallon a minute, etc. etc. etc. etc.

 

[BigD1]

I don't put much credence in super efficient oil filters. Last data sheet I saw for a German made Mann W/917 was 99% @37 microns. Over 350,000 miles now on my Volvo 240, and it's still running. I think I will keep on keeping on with the Mann filter, and doing 3,000 to 4,000 mile oil changes with cheap oil.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Linctex

I stand by what I said: 100% plugged = 100% bypass ...

With a "less-than-plugged filter", anytime PSI exceeds Delta-P = some oil is still flowing through the element, and less than 100% is being bypassed. The only time you see 100% bypass (flow function, not pressure) is when there is 0% element flow (which is rare).


My bad ... I wasn't thinking of 100% clogged = 100 % bypass, which is true. And yes, this would be a very rare thing to happen.

One thing I will say though is that if the filter is 100% clogged (which should never happen unless the vehicle owner does zero maintenance), and all oil flow is forced to go through the filter bypass valve, it could cause the oil pump to hit pressure relief much sooner due to the increased restriction, and therefore starve the engine of some oil flow. If you look at most filter bypass valves, they are relatively small, and frankly doubt they are designed to take the full 100% of the flow without causing added pressure drop across the filter and much earlier oil pump pressure relief.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
OEM are better IMO since the more the efficiency of the filter, it get more bypass burst at high pressure differential, specially for colder short trippers and spirited drivers. At bypass the efficiency fall down to the floor, circulating lots of dirt.


Have you rigged up your engine to measure delta-p to verify that? Read this thread ... it's pretty rare to get the oil filter to bypass unless your really revving high in freezing weather with cold oil.

Filter Bypass Testing by Jim Allen


There are bypass valves built into the block, no way to know when they are active. Why people seek out these high efficiency filters is beyend me, Even a jobber filter will get your engine to 400K, at that point you are driving a 33 year old beater


My 431k mile "beater" looks nicer than when it was for sale new on the dealer lot.

 

[Ducked]

Assuming that filter efficiency increases engine longevity (which is controversial, though there does seem to be some supporting data for it) why would OEM's specify a high efficiency filter?

In the absence of a high degree of consumer awareness, it doesn't seem to be at all in their interest.

 

[veryHeavy]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
“Fram Ultra Guard filter, it is 99 percent efficient at 20 microns. At 10 microns it’s 94 percent efficient.”


I just spoke to a Fram technician (over the phone) and he said it's only 50% at 10 microns.

NO other brand gets anywhere near 94% at that size. (PureOne is 70%, Amsoil is 60%, etc.) I suspect the manager in the interview made an error (quoting from fault memory).

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: BigD1
I don't put much credence in super efficient oil filters. Last data sheet I saw for a German made Mann W/917 was 99% @37 microns. Over 350,000 miles now on my Volvo 240, and it's still running. I think I will keep on keeping on with the Mann filter, and doing 3,000 to 4,000 mile oil changes with cheap oil.



I'm pretty sure the Volvo and vw filters are interchangeable, 3/4 16 unf thread and 76mm gasket, low to mid 30s bypass, the reason I mention this is because Mann quote much better than 99%@37micron...

Copied from another thread on here;
Quote:
This may or may not help but had it saved from 2003 so am copying and pasting it here for you. This data is for Mann filters for a VW 1.8T engine so yours may vary. You may have questions about the data but I doubt I can answer it.

"Info from German Mann employee I spoke to:
Carol Hubbard (U.S.): 269-329-7211 (she forwarded my questions to Germany)
Jurgen Englmaler: 269 327-0057
Sellers: Volkparts.com : 1-800-322-6006 (paid $43.70 for six w/shipping) or
Filtersupplyamerica.com: 904 695-2539
Mann Filters – GTI 1.8t (OEM Supplier)
• Oil Filter (W 719/30) – 9 micron filtration at 99.5 – 99.9% efficiency
- Flow rate: 18 liters/min at ? pressure (tech guy did not know pressure)
- By-pass valve opens at 2.5 bar = 36.3 psi
- Cellulose treated with chemical – no fiberglass filters allowed in Germany
- Long-life filter – has recently been greatly improved to allow VW/Audi’s extended drain intervals
• Air Filter (C 37153) – 2 to 3 micron filtration at 99.8% efficiency
- Flow rate: 6 cubic meters/min at ? pressure (tech guy did not know pressure)
• Fuel Filter (WK 730-1) – 10 micron filtration at ? efficiency
- Flow rate: 90 liters/hr at ? pressure (tech guy did not know)"


The air filter part of the quote is irrelevant, but better oil filtration is available

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
“Fram Ultra Guard filter, it is 99 percent efficient at 20 microns. At 10 microns it’s 94 percent efficient.”


I just spoke to a Fram technician (over the phone) and he said it's only 50% at 10 microns.

NO other brand gets anywhere near 94% at that size. (PureOne is 70%, Amsoil is 60%, etc.) I suspect the manager in the interview made an error (quoting from fault memory).


Where are you getting your info on the PureOne? Per Purolator themselves, the old PureOne was 95% at 8 microns.

PureOne Efficiency Info [LINK]

 

[Job]

delete

 

[dwendt44]

MO since the more the efficiency of the filter, it get more bypass burst at high pressure differential, specially for colder short trippers and spirited drivers. At bypass the efficiency fall down to the floor, circulating lots of dirt.

One reason some of us seek and use oversized filters.

My 2¢

 

[oil pan 4]

Are fram ultra synthetic filters still 99% for 20mu and 50% for 10mu?
When I googled it this post seems to be the latest update and a lots changed since 2020.
I can't get an fram synthetic endurance unless I order it, but I can get an ultra and figure that good enough.