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This needs to be locked because it will go down the tubes when some use the government as an example of good economics
EPA to roll back Obama-era fuel economy standards.
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Of course regulations are a good thing. Of course they should also be enforced. It is called living in a modern, orderly and functional society.
Regulations are meant to make things better for the masses and not to allow abuses that benefit the few.
Regulations are meant to make things better for the masses and not to allow abuses that benefit the few.
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ZZman. Our collective (societal) behavior creates demand. Government shouldn't be in the business of creating demand...doesn't create efficient outcomes for us all. I don't want an authoritarian Government situation. If we vote for these things then that is a different story...but the unelected EPA making laws is not a good thing...IMHO.
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted By: PimTac
... The EPA pendulum swung too far and gave them too much power.
This is the prevailing thought in Detroit for the past 25 years. The EPA did a good job back in the 60s and 70s cleaning the air. By 1974 they removed 90% of tailpipe emissions. But then they just kept continuing to beat the clean air stick with automobiles. They did it because the legal mechanisms were in place to allow them to continue and people were simply used to it. IF you look at the cost/benefit curve of lowering tailpipe emissions you'll see that we are spending enormous amounts of money to lower emissions only a small iota. The EPA built itself an empire that needs to downsize. They did a good job lowering tailpipe emissions. Now they need to step back and police what's in place instead of pushing further on the automotive industry.
Studies by the CARB show tailpipe emissions have fallen drastically in the Los Angeles basin to where they are only 30% of the pollution. A significant amount of pollution now comes from lawn mowers and barbecues. I pollute the air more when I mow my lawn than I do driving around for two weeks. The EPA needs to shift their focus if we believe more needs to be done for clean air.
Not many people may realize that back in the 70s and 80s CAFE exempted light trucks. This was because of the backlash from those who argued it would unfairly penalize the struggling contractor or farmer who depends on his truck to eke out a living. This loophole led rise to the SUV craze in the 90s and makes a mockery of CAFE to this day. A rise in gasoline prices led to the market demanding passenger cars to be more fuel efficient. With these two factors, meeting CAFE became easy. Additionally, the introduction of electronics and fuel injection made meeting CAFE and EPA targets easier. Back in the 70s companies like Ford were forced to sell a handful of Pintos at a loss in order to sell one profitable Lincoln.
... The EPA pendulum swung too far and gave them too much power.
This is the prevailing thought in Detroit for the past 25 years. The EPA did a good job back in the 60s and 70s cleaning the air. By 1974 they removed 90% of tailpipe emissions. But then they just kept continuing to beat the clean air stick with automobiles. They did it because the legal mechanisms were in place to allow them to continue and people were simply used to it. IF you look at the cost/benefit curve of lowering tailpipe emissions you'll see that we are spending enormous amounts of money to lower emissions only a small iota. The EPA built itself an empire that needs to downsize. They did a good job lowering tailpipe emissions. Now they need to step back and police what's in place instead of pushing further on the automotive industry.
Studies by the CARB show tailpipe emissions have fallen drastically in the Los Angeles basin to where they are only 30% of the pollution. A significant amount of pollution now comes from lawn mowers and barbecues. I pollute the air more when I mow my lawn than I do driving around for two weeks. The EPA needs to shift their focus if we believe more needs to be done for clean air.
Not many people may realize that back in the 70s and 80s CAFE exempted light trucks. This was because of the backlash from those who argued it would unfairly penalize the struggling contractor or farmer who depends on his truck to eke out a living. This loophole led rise to the SUV craze in the 90s and makes a mockery of CAFE to this day. A rise in gasoline prices led to the market demanding passenger cars to be more fuel efficient. With these two factors, meeting CAFE became easy. Additionally, the introduction of electronics and fuel injection made meeting CAFE and EPA targets easier. Back in the 70s companies like Ford were forced to sell a handful of Pintos at a loss in order to sell one profitable Lincoln.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
One car testing magazine/outfits just got 13 mpg in a TRD Tundra.
That is horrendous....
My F150 is averaging in the upper 18’s -
I regularly get 19+ miles per gallon under ideal conditions
I'll be doing what I can in my "new to me" 1993 F-150 4x4 5.8L. It's air density EFI with bank fired injection and it gets 13'ish. But I think with rebuilt 4-hole Bosch injectors and a sharp tune, I can get it up to 17 (maybe) ... No more commute, just errands and real work tasks. But, it's paid for, so I can buy a lot of gas for what you'all are spending on payments
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
One car testing magazine/outfits just got 13 mpg in a TRD Tundra.
That is horrendous....
My F150 is averaging in the upper 18’s -
I regularly get 19+ miles per gallon under ideal conditions
I'll be doing what I can in my "new to me" 1993 F-150 4x4 5.8L. It's air density EFI with bank fired injection and it gets 13'ish. But I think with rebuilt 4-hole Bosch injectors and a sharp tune, I can get it up to 17 (maybe) ... No more commute, just errands and real work tasks. But, it's paid for, so I can buy a lot of gas for what you'all are spending on payments
I'm happy to see some common sense prevail for once, but I would not celebrate just yet. It is yet to be seen if we, as consumers, will enjoy any benefits of this.
But you can be darn sure that the top brass in the auto segment is already planning bonuses for themselves.
But you can be darn sure that the top brass in the auto segment is already planning bonuses for themselves.
The market failure was the bailout, not the drop in equities, loss of confidence in the banks, etc.
The market was doing what it does. The government intervened to circumvent the market responding to new information.
What the market learned is that the government was willing to bail them out when they don't practice sound business.
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
SonoofJoe. 2008 was hardly a "free market" failure. Federal reserve allowed/approved unsound bank lending practices and banks innovated investments that ultimately caused major issues when they failed. Government causes these problems then creates new laws to fix, etc., etc. Then taxpayers bailout companies and no one learns their lession...hardly free markets. At least in free market situations poor companies don't survive to live another day to make more poor decisions. We have a crony capitalist system. I unfortunately lived through this on the front lines...you learn quickly don't fight the Fed or the system investment wise but get out before it comes crashing down.
The market was doing what it does. The government intervened to circumvent the market responding to new information.
What the market learned is that the government was willing to bail them out when they don't practice sound business.
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
SonoofJoe. 2008 was hardly a "free market" failure. Federal reserve allowed/approved unsound bank lending practices and banks innovated investments that ultimately caused major issues when they failed. Government causes these problems then creates new laws to fix, etc., etc. Then taxpayers bailout companies and no one learns their lession...hardly free markets. At least in free market situations poor companies don't survive to live another day to make more poor decisions. We have a crony capitalist system. I unfortunately lived through this on the front lines...you learn quickly don't fight the Fed or the system investment wise but get out before it comes crashing down.
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Of course regulations are a good thing. Of course they should also be enforced. It is called living in a modern, orderly and functional society.
Regulations are meant to make things better for the masses and not to allow abuses that benefit the few.
This is what a regulation "making things better" looks like. 6 months after paint. The paint doesn't stink, the low VOC regulations stink. Gotta drive to Vermont to buy stain that lasts more than a year.
Of course regulations are a good thing. Of course they should also be enforced. It is called living in a modern, orderly and functional society.
Regulations are meant to make things better for the masses and not to allow abuses that benefit the few.
This is what a regulation "making things better" looks like. 6 months after paint. The paint doesn't stink, the low VOC regulations stink. Gotta drive to Vermont to buy stain that lasts more than a year.
Let’s back off the manufacturers and let them catch up on their technology. Remember the stupid air pumps in the early days of emission controls?
Air pumps? Do tell. Never heard.
I was banking on Ford stock to jump in past few years. (But did not) because they wanted to crack the china market. If we are able to build gas efficient cars we open ourselves to more markets. (Europe,Japan,china) where gas is really expensive. I avoid buying things that are grown in China (ie garlic, shrimp, tilapia) because I question their soils and water quality. I saw reports that Mexico loves to buy American made products because they love the quality and safety. We can lose that if we soil our environment.
I was banking on Ford stock to jump in past few years. (But did not) because they wanted to crack the china market. If we are able to build gas efficient cars we open ourselves to more markets. (Europe,Japan,china) where gas is really expensive. I avoid buying things that are grown in China (ie garlic, shrimp, tilapia) because I question their soils and water quality. I saw reports that Mexico loves to buy American made products because they love the quality and safety. We can lose that if we soil our environment.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
The market failure was the bailout, not the drop in equities, loss of confidence in the banks, etc.
The market was doing what it does. The government intervened to circumvent the market responding to new information.
What the market learned is that the government was willing to bail them out when they don't practice sound business.
The "bailout" was a contractual agreement. And in fact was not a bailout at all. The government agreed to back all these loans way back during Clinton administration.
This was a robbery of the taxpayers and a hostile takeover for big banks over the little ones.
The market failure was the bailout, not the drop in equities, loss of confidence in the banks, etc.
The market was doing what it does. The government intervened to circumvent the market responding to new information.
What the market learned is that the government was willing to bail them out when they don't practice sound business.
The "bailout" was a contractual agreement. And in fact was not a bailout at all. The government agreed to back all these loans way back during Clinton administration.
This was a robbery of the taxpayers and a hostile takeover for big banks over the little ones.
This rollback will not bring us back to brown air and high pollution. A lot has changed since the 70’s. Most if not all city transit buses are CNG powered or have other clean power drive trains. The old diesel buses are gone. Same for city fleets, garbage trucks and so on. Cars themselves are much cleaner than before. The technology has greatly improved from the throw on tech of the 70’s and 80’s like air pumps.
In the end climate change will happen and no human intervention can stop it. Anyone who preaches the answer is looking for something else, power. Human society will adapt. It’s not the end of the world as the fear mongers say.
In the end climate change will happen and no human intervention can stop it. Anyone who preaches the answer is looking for something else, power. Human society will adapt. It’s not the end of the world as the fear mongers say.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I could write more, but I have to go to work so that I can pay 37% in combined marginal income and payroll taxes at the state and federal level. Perhaps I could get some relief from this outsized burden and I might be more amenable to a government that claims to be working for my "greater good." Right now, it seems I'm being worked for someone else's vision of the greater good.
We've gone to talking politics, and combining preventing people from pooping in their drinking water (as an analogy) to combined marginal taxes that are due to handouts.
Vastly different things.
Lock time.
I could write more, but I have to go to work so that I can pay 37% in combined marginal income and payroll taxes at the state and federal level. Perhaps I could get some relief from this outsized burden and I might be more amenable to a government that claims to be working for my "greater good." Right now, it seems I'm being worked for someone else's vision of the greater good.
We've gone to talking politics, and combining preventing people from pooping in their drinking water (as an analogy) to combined marginal taxes that are due to handouts.
Vastly different things.
Lock time.
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