Electric Vehicle Impacts

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Originally Posted by edwardh1
off topic but are charging stations in public areas free?

Here in NM, I've seen quite a few free charging stations-most solar powered/shaded parking
 
Arguably there are more motors out there than there are engines. That sort of maintenance requirement has been established for a long time.

Dont see how much of the steering design will change lube-wise. Nor hydraulic braking (use a vacuum pump for boost if necessary; diesels do), etc.
 
Originally Posted by CT8
We will need vast power production if electric cars become high in numbers


Plus they won't be able to give it away free and also the government will need the tax money, so the public machines will eventually get extra taxes applied.
 
No free ride here.

B33D5CDD-05B7-4E39-9538-4815BE08272E.jpeg
 
Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Yeah, but no one I know has done the total ROI for electric vehicles from mining and smelting to EOL recycling, including emissions for MFG ... I have a strong suspicion that it is worse than most petro vehicles ...


Right from "you can't make this stuff up if you tried".

There is a windmill project being built in the middle of nowhere, south of my city, nearest major power consumer base (city) is 100+ miles away.
It is being funded by the Ontario government to the tune of $250 million, and is being built on the land of a native reserve.
if the destruction of the pristine land for the wind mill farm along with the transmission power lines, corridor isn't mind boggling enough.
There is this gem.
A huge forest fire was started - allegedly - by the Ministry of the Environment Argo, checking on the environmental guidelines on the build site.
I have that as 1st hand knowledge from a site worker.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ontario-forest-fire-wind-farm-construction-1.4758864

The fire eventually burned 28,000+ acres of pristine forest, never mind the wild life losses.
 
Originally Posted by CT8
We will need vast power production if electric cars become high in numbers



Exactly! The power supply, grid, and distribution system is not in place and would take a decade, if not decades in reality to support total individual EV transportation.


Next issue, as has already been mentioned. The battery technology really is just not affordable yet, and the longevity of the batteries is the real killer of the EV.


I believe at this time still, "no one", OE dealer, aftermarket, or an individual can buy a "new" replacement battery pack for an EV or a Hybrid. If you have an issue under warranty with an EV or a Hybrid, you will not get a "new" battery, you will get a factory reconditioned battery which consists of a battery pack that has had all the battery cells tested individually, equalized, and has had the lower voltage/amperage cells removed and replaced with better cells from another used battery. All of the cells in the reconditioned battery pack are used, none of them are new! Its a horror story the EV industry hides from the public. If they sold "new" batteries, and you found out the price up front, and were told in 5 to 8 years you would need a "new" battery, You would never buy an EV!


I shut the battery system off on my 2006 Accord Hybrid a few years ago...It's just a regular gas burning V6 Accord now. Used to get 37mpg, now 31mpg.
 
Originally Posted by pkunk
Originally Posted by edwardh1
off topic but are charging stations in public areas free?

Here in NM, I've seen quite a few free charging stations-most solar powered/shaded parking


Might be free to charge, but it's not free power, someone is paying.

As to carport solar roofs, consider about 1KWh per square meter per average day on an ideally situated location...you aren't charging very many vehicals from the rooftop alone.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Dunno but I saw a Hybrid on my latest 9 hour business trip pulling a 20 foot camping trailer.
Surprisingly, a newer model Prius can tow up to 1600 lbs, and the bigger Highlander Hybrid does 3500 lbs. But a 20 ft trailer? RV trailers like that weigh around 2700 lbs. My C-Max hybrid can't tow anything according to Ford, but up to 1,000 lbs would probably be fine with a decent hitch. Heat management is the problem. Voids warranties if they catch you too.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by pkunk
edwardh1 said:
off topic but are charging stations in public areas free?



As to carport solar roofs, consider about 1KWh per square meter per average day on an ideally situated location...you aren't charging very many vehicals from the rooftop alone.


A friend has 2 Tesla Model S cars. He also has 10KW of grid tie solar on his home. The 10KW worth of panels produce a peak of 8kw power at noon. (some losses in the inverters) Also, in our Florida location, the annualized sunlight is 4.7 hours of sun per day.

The bottom line is that the 10KW installation completely offsets his motoring expenses. Excluding the very high vehicle cost, the fuel savings payback is about 7 or 8 years.
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by pkunk
edwardh1 said:
off topic but are charging stations in public areas free?



As to carport solar roofs, consider about 1KWh per square meter per average day on an ideally situated location...you aren't charging very many vehicals from the rooftop alone.


A friend has 2 Tesla Model S cars. He also has 10KW of grid tie solar on his home. The 10KW worth of panels produce a peak of 8kw power at noon. (some losses in the inverters) Also, in our Florida location, the annualized sunlight is 4.7 hours of sun per day.

The bottom line is that the 10KW installation completely offsets his motoring expenses. Excluding the very high vehicle cost, the fuel savings payback is about 7 or 8 years.


Assuming he paid for the panels himself, that's roughly $300K (cars + solar). Somewhat ironic that somebody who can afford such a setup is, financially, the least in need to benefit from it.

This is of course in-step with everybody I know who owns a Model S and those that own grid-tie solar. None of these people's lifestyles are being impacted by the increase in electricity costs but saw an opportunity to benefit from government subsidy (FIT and EV seeding).
 
I clearly get the point. I could probably swing a model 3. If I choose one, it won't be for any form of savings or tax break. It would be because I like it and enjoy driving it.

Of note, last night I drove a 2018 Altima from Sav, GA to West Palm Beach, FL. 36mpg Highway, 3/4 tank of gas. I won't say the speed but a P100 would have had to make 2 stops to recharge.
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
I clearly get the point. I could probably swing a model 3. If I choose one, it won't be for any form of savings or tax break. It would be because I like it and enjoy driving it.

Of note, last night I drove a 2018 Altima from Sav, GA to West Palm Beach, FL. 36mpg Highway, 3/4 tank of gas. I won't say the speed but a P100 would have had to make 2 stops to recharge.


thumbsup2.gif


I was, when I bought the Jeep, also looking at a Model S w/AWD. However, the deal I got on the Jeep, I couldn't get on the S. The trip we often make down east couldn't be done without a few charges in the Model S. However, 95% of my driving, it would work.

I like the thought of the Model 3, but my concern is that performance-wise, I'd still be wanting the S.

Realistically, unless fuel prices go insane, we'll likely stick with what's in the stable at this juncture.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by pkunk
edwardh1 said:
off topic but are charging stations in public areas free?



As to carport solar roofs, consider about 1KWh per square meter per average day on an ideally situated location...you aren't charging very many vehicals from the rooftop alone.


A friend has 2 Tesla Model S cars. He also has 10KW of grid tie solar on his home. The 10KW worth of panels produce a peak of 8kw power at noon. (some losses in the inverters) Also, in our Florida location, the annualized sunlight is 4.7 hours of sun per day.

The bottom line is that the 10KW installation completely offsets his motoring expenses. Excluding the very high vehicle cost, the fuel savings payback is about 7 or 8 years.


Assuming he paid for the panels himself, that's roughly $300K (cars + solar). Somewhat ironic that somebody who can afford such a setup is, financially, the least in need to benefit from it.

This is of course in-step with everybody I know who owns a Model S and those that own grid-tie solar. None of these people's lifestyles are being impacted by the increase in electricity costs but saw an opportunity to benefit from government subsidy (FIT and EV seeding).


Isn't that the way it goes with most things? Those who can afford it enter first, then tech transfers down as costs reduce?

Tech doesn't show up in the smart car first, it shows up in the S class.
Tech doesn't show up in the chrome book first, it shows up in the high end business and gaming laptops.
Tech doesn't show up in the loss leader appliances, it shows up in the high end kitchen appliances first.

And so on.

The fact that economics is a consideration here is not really a factor. In this case money buys economy as well as some other untangible factors which if feel good or bond fide benefit, is those who have money's to spend.
 
Originally Posted by JHZR2

Isn't that the way it goes with most things? Those who can afford it enter first, then tech transfers down as costs reduce?

Tech doesn't show up in the smart car first, it shows up in the S class.
Tech doesn't show up in the chrome book first, it shows up in the high end business and gaming laptops.
Tech doesn't show up in the loss leader appliances, it shows up in the high end kitchen appliances first.

And so on.

The fact that economics is a consideration here is not really a factor. In this case money buys economy as well as some other untangible factors which if feel good or bond fide benefit, is those who have money's to spend.


My gripe isn't with the tech, it's the subsidy. If you can afford a $130,000 Tesla, you don't need a $15,000 government rebate. Equally stupid: if you can afford to put $50K of solar panels on your roof, the rest of the ratepayers shouldn't be subsidizing your install with an $0.80/kWh feed-in tariff, which affects the rate that everybody else has to pay, particularly the folks who can't afford either of those items.

The preposterous false economics of the feed-in tariff system is the cornerstone of Ontario's electricity disaster. Doubling rates, incurring massive infrastructure upgrade costs and forcing energy poverty on rural ratepayers who were the ones most affected by this program.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
My gripe isn't with the tech, it's the subsidy. If you can afford a $130,000 Tesla, you don't need a $15,000 government rebate. Equally stupid: if you can afford to put $50K of solar panels on your roof, the rest of the ratepayers shouldn't be subsidizing your install with an $0.80/kWh feed-in tariff, which affects the rate that everybody else has to pay, particularly the folks who can't afford either of those items.
The preposterous false economics of the feed-in tariff system is the cornerstone of Ontario's electricity disaster. Doubling rates, incurring massive infrastructure upgrade costs and forcing energy poverty on rural ratepayers who were the ones most affected by this program.

Sounds like a recent rich Tesla buyer I met the other day. He asked me if it was fair for him to get a U.S. federal government rebate of $7,500 on his Model S.
I told him "Well, the goal is cleaner air & U.S. development of it's electric vehicle advanced tech, so, yes, it's "fair" to incentivize high tech companies sometimes."
Sometimes its not just about who deserves the tax subsidy, its more about coaxing an industry and getting air pollution out of city centers.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies

Sounds like a recent rich Tesla buyer I met the other day. He asked me if it was fair for him to get a U.S. federal government rebate of $7,500 on his Model S.
I told him "Well, the goal is cleaner air & U.S. development of it's electric vehicle advanced tech, so, yes, it's "fair" to incentivize high tech companies sometimes."
Sometimes its not just about who deserves the tax subsidy, its more about coaxing an industry and getting air pollution out of city centers.


They are already benefiting from not having to buy expensive gasoline nor are they paying a road tax. The economics work without the rebate, which is funded by money taken from everybody else. Tesla as a company has received a ton of government support to evolve their tech, I don't believe that rebating their target market to incentivize procurement is necessary. Most of these folks would have no problem dropping the same amount of money on a Bimmer, Benz or Audi, so it seems silly to try and manipulate their purchasing choices via a taxpayer-funded rebate. On the other hand, supporting the company directly, resulting in an affordable mainstream option like the Model 3, which is more attainable for "average Joe" at least has some sense of logic to it.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
They are already benefiting from not having to buy expensive gasoline nor are they paying a road tax.
In many places in the U.S. (I don't know about your country, Canada, or Europe etc.), road tax is collected at the annual registration renewal time. In fact, on my Ford Focus Electric, they collect more than what I would have been taxed if it had a gasoline engine.

A direct subsidy to Tesla & other electric car companies? Maybe yes, that could make more sense. For many years industries have been boosted by the Feds using R&D free dollars. Other ways too.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
They are already benefiting from not having to buy expensive gasoline nor are they paying a road tax.
In many places in the U.S. (I don't know about your country, Canada, or Europe etc.), road tax is collected at the annual registration renewal time. In fact, on my Ford Focus Electric, they collect more than what I would have been taxed if it had a gasoline engine.

A direct subsidy to Tesla & other electric car companies? Maybe yes, that could make more sense. For many years industries have been boosted by the Feds using R&D free dollars. Other ways too.


This is a major problem in many areas of the country,
In Wisconsin the taxes are punitive on cars in general and plug ins even more so with special fees and wheel taxes that don't apply to trucks.
They are making it so it's cheaper to own an hd truck than a little car.

Add to this my electric bill is up to 90% tax, this means an EV pays plenty of tax already into the general fund.
Meanwhile taxis and cement trucks get a rebate check for all road tax paid and semis just write it off.

Seems like a bass ackward situation
 
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