Educate me on Home Propane Gas Service - Please

[brianl703]

I think some homes can do it 200amp esp if you are at the 100-120max amp range on the tankless.

Some, maybe.

Not if you have a heatpump with electric aux heat (say 25a for the condenser, 60a for the 10kW aux heat+air handler).

Or a regular AC with an electric stove (25a plus 50a)

(25a is a 2-ton condensing unit).

Either of these scenarios maxes out or exceeds a 200a panel when combined with a 125a tankless.

 

[alarmguy]

...

IMO a tankless WH on propane is insanity; if you want tankless go electric there. And yes, 120gal tank sounds VERY tiny considering; I think from Nov-March I’m going through ~800 gallons in Indiana just for reference, and I keep my house at 62 in winter.

Propane is just hot water, cook top stove (oven is electric) and fireplace which would be/is rarely used in the "south"
Heat is not propane, just heat pump.

Electric here is 10 cents kWr
I wish the house was all electric though my wife is liking the gas cooktop.
Is it safe to say I am not saving money having a propane hot water heater vs electric hot water heater ?

Trying to understand these posts, so much conflicting information I know everyone is trying to be helpful in their answers.

Everyone must understand, our house is only a cooktop propane, Oven is Electric, only other propane use is the hot water heater and I guess the propane fireplace infrequently.
Our house is not heated with propane, it is an electric heat pump with electric element back up.

 

[alarmguy]

Some, maybe.

Not if you have a heatpump with electric aux heat (say 25a for the condenser, 60a for the 10kW aux heat+air handler).

Or a regular AC with an electric stove (25a plus 50a)

(25a is a 2-ton condensing unit).

Either of these scenarios maxes out or exceeds a 200a panel when combined with a 125a tankless.

Ah ha,
Actually this post explained a lot and why this community of a couple thousand homes and others around it. Have propane?
Or it is just the propane company paying builder costs making it an advantage for the builder?

So really and truly if I just had an all electric home energy costs would be lower?
Im not going to convert a new home, just curious.
Put in a 50 gallon electric tank water heater and electric stove on 200 amp service, forget the fireplace.
Im pretty sure a nearby family member is all electric with that set up (no fireplace)

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Propane is just hot water, cook top stove (oven is electric) and fireplace which would be/is rarely used in the "south"
Heat is not propane, just heat pump.

Electric here is 10 cents kWr
I wish the house was all electric though my wife is liking the gas cooktop.
Is it safe to say I am not saving money having a propane hot water heater vs electric hot water heater ?

Trying to understand these posts, so much conflicting information I know everyone is trying to be helpful in their answers.

Everyone must understand, our house is only a cooktop propane, Oven is Electric, only other propane use is the hot water heater and I guess the propane fireplace infrequently.
Out house is not heated with propane, it is an electric heat pump with electric element back up.

IMHO, and I don’t know your budget nor where you are in the process, but from my research, geothermal HVAC with a desuperheater for domestic hot water is the ultimate. I checked out WaterFurnace since they are based in my state; they would put a couple hundred feet of PEX in the ground for the heat sink, and this handles heating and A/C. Rather than paying for electric furnace or gas/propane plus electric fans, a geo system only requires electricity to run the pump and compressor, so essentially a heat pump system.

The piping in the ground has a 100-year warranty; the “furnace” has a 12 year warranty but there are plenty of anecdotes on the net that show these are easily lasting 20+ years with minimal parts failures, and in the south the system will likely supply 100% of hot water and maybe 70-80% in the winter, for nearly free. To me, the biggest benefit of this is the system is simply transferring energy back and forth, rather than consuming it. Electric & gas heat both eat large amounts of energy to transfer heat & cold to air (a notoriously good insulator), where geo uses water to transfer heat. Overall running costs are lower, but offset by higher initial costs.

My quote prior to CV was about $22k to replace furnace, AC, and HW with the geo; since ‘22 that quote ballooned to nearly $32k. If I had done the system in ‘20, payback vs my current propane would have been about 4-5 years; now it’s about 8. But after the 8 years until the end of life of the system, savings vs propane would be roughly ~$200/mo, even at current prices. Propane is only going to get more expensive; you could realistically add a medium-sized solar array and completely power the geo system.

Just my .02, hope this helps!

 

[alarmguy]

IMHO, and I don’t know your budget nor where you are in the process, but from my research, geothermal HVAC with a desuperheater for domestic hot water is the ultimate. I checked out WaterFurnace since they are based in my state; they would put a couple hundred feet of PEX in the ground for the heat sink, and this handles heating and A/C. Rather than paying for electric furnace or gas/propane plus electric fans, a geo system only requires electricity to run the pump and compressor, so essentially a heat pump system.

The piping in the ground has a 100-year warranty; the “furnace” has a 12 year warranty but there are plenty of anecdotes on the net that show these are easily lasting 20+ years with minimal parts failures, and in the south the system will likely supply 100% of hot water and maybe 70-80% in the winter, for nearly free. To me, the biggest benefit of this is the system is simply transferring energy back and forth, rather than consuming it. Electric & gas heat both eat large amounts of energy to transfer heat & cold to air (a notoriously good insulator), where geo uses water to transfer heat. Overall running costs are lower, but offset by higher initial costs.

My quote prior to CV was about $22k to replace furnace, AC, and HW with the geo; since ‘22 that quote ballooned to nearly $32k. If I had done the system in ‘20, payback vs my current propane would have been about 4-5 years; now it’s about 8. But after the 8 years until the end of life of the system, savings vs propane would be roughly ~$200/mo, even at current prices. Propane is only going to get more expensive; you could realistically add a medium-sized solar array and completely power the geo system.

Just my .02, hope this helps!

Yeah, our house is built we moved in, would not be practical for any of this. I wouldnt be on this earth anymore by the time payback came, well, hopefully but if so, I am sure we would be in another house by then.
Thanks

 

[brianl703]

Ah ha,
Actually this post explained a lot and why this community of a couple thousand homes and others around it. Have propane?
Or it is just the propane company paying builder costs making it an advantage for the builder?

So really and truly if I just had an all electric home energy costs would be lower?
Im not going to convert a new home, just curious.
Put in a 50 gallon electric tank water heater and electric stove on 200 amp service, forget the fireplace.
Im pretty sure a nearby family member is all electric with that set up (no fireplace)

Electric tankless water heaters use a lot of electricity so they might need a 400A service. So if the choice is between that and a propane one, the propane tankless water heater probably wins (unless maybe you were going to get a 400A service anyway).

But a heatpump water heater beats them both, and only needs a 30A breaker so it'd be fine on a 30A service.

 

[alarmguy]

Electric tankless water heaters use a lot of electricity so they might need a 400A service. So if the choice is between that and a propane one, the propane tankless water heater probably wins (unless maybe you were going to get a 400A service anyway).

But a heatpump water heater beats them both, and only needs a 30A breaker so it'd be fine on a 30A service.

oh, no, we are only talking now but if I was to ditch propane, which I am not. with 200 amp service in the home, I assume an electric element 50 gallon water heater would be well within the electric requirements of the home.

It certainly would be cheap to ditch a tankless heat in favor of a heater with tank. I mean, literally take the water heater off the side of the house and put a tank inside the house garage exactly on the other side of the wall that the tankless is on. Even more so the electric panel is literally less than 5 feet way. Not only that, the electric tank water heater would be exactly at the right spot in the garage out of the way. Front left corner,

Being energy is so cheap here I dont think I would see the payback on the Heatpump?

 

[brianl703]

oh, no, we are only talking now but if I was to ditch propane, which I am not. with 200 amp service in the home, I assume an electric element 50 gallon water heater would be well within the electric requirements of the home.

I'd venture to guess that it'd be fine.

It certainly would be cheap to ditch a tankless heat in favor of a heater with tank. Being energy is so cheap here I dont think I would see the payback on the Heatpump?

I think it depends on your hot water usage.

 

[RhondaHonda]

Keep us posted how long that propane tank lasts supplying the tankless water heater.

 

[Rand]

oh, no, we are only talking now but if I was to ditch propane, which I am not. with 200 amp service in the home, I assume an electric element 50 gallon water heater would be well within the electric requirements of the home.

It certainly would be cheap to ditch a tankless heat in favor of a heater with tank. I mean, literally take the water heater off the side of the house and put a tank inside the house garage exactly on the other side of the wall that the tankless is on. Even more so the electric panel is literally less than 5 feet way. Not only that, the electric tank water heater would be exactly at the right spot in the garage out of the way. Front left corner,

Being energy is so cheap here I dont think I would see the payback on the Heatpump?

You would still see a very noticeable savings with the HPWH. $20-$30 a month in savings easily.
payback would be 2-4 years depending.
hpwh can be run in garage or basement. if its super cold it has backup traditional elements. usually works down to about 40f with efficiency going up as the temperature does.
also you havent verified your "REAL cost per kwh"
you can estimate the increase by checking a spring bill vs a summer bill with AC running.. to see the increase in bill vs the increase in kwh.. to estimate real kwh costs..
unless you have simplified billing.

you also might have a local rebate for the hpwh.. as well as a 300 tax credit.

 

[brianl703]

hpwh can be run in garage or basement. if its super cold it has backup traditional elements. usually works down to about 40f with efficiency going up as the temperature does.

Can't imagine a water heater being installed in a place where it would get cold enough that a hpwh wouldn't work. You run the risk of freezing pipes.

If in a basement, it will help to dehumidify the basement, which could make your AC not have to work as hard removing moisture from the air.

 

[Rand]

Can't imagine a water heater being installed in a place where it would get cold enough that a hpwh wouldn't work. You run the risk of freezing pipes.

A garage?(which is common in the south) might only be a short period every couple years but its something you dont have to worry about as its smart enough to use the resistance element if that comes up.

unlike an outdoor heat pump these dont have any sort of defrost so if its much under 40F you risk icing.
Which is never an issue in my basement but might be in a garage.

 

[brianl703]

A garage?(which is common in the south)

I've never seen one in a garage in Virginia. Maybe farther south--but it's much less likely to get below freezing, further south.

 

[Snagglefoot]

You be honest, heat loss from a hot water tank in a northern climate is not really a loss if the tank is inside the house and merely contributes to heating the house. It would be a different story in the summer months as it would cause more air conditioning load ( if the house had air conditioning.)

 

[Snagglefoot]

The easy approximate conversion is 1mcf NG=11gallons of propane.

I prefer BTU.

Yes, not a problem. So, my cheapest heat source is my heat pump, but when outdoor temps get below 27 F, my heat pump switches to my high efficiency boiler that burns propane, but the price suddenly goes up, and now stoking my wood burning air tight stove makes sense to get things warmed up in the morning. Also as long as as the boiler is running there is no shame in running an electric space heater in my sun room with way too much glass area.

 

[Snagglefoot]

You be honest, heat loss from a hot water tank in a northern climate is not really a loss if the tank is inside the house and merely contributes to heating the house. It would be a different story in the summer months as it would cause more air conditioning load ( if the house had air conditioning.)

Whoops. Meant to say, “to be honest”. Wasn’t trying to single anyone out.

 

[Randol]

Two rules of thumb apply. If you plan on staying in the home long term, it should pay to purchase a tank (even used) rather than rent. Second, the larger your tank, the less you pay per gallon of propane. It pays to shop around before signing a contract with Suburban.

This right here

We bought our own 1000 gallon tank in 2005 (used $1100), it paid for itself the first year with the savings from being able to shop the free market for the best price. Our original supplier was gouging the crap out of us on price (Hoosier, which then became Suburban) . They sent us a nasty gram after a few years of not buying enough propane for their buried 500 gallon tank on our property. I said come dig it up or sell it to me. I bought it for $800.

 

[DwightFrye]

When I bought my home in 2019 there was already a propane tank installed that supplied the gas stove, dryer and furnace. And feeds the Generac generator when it kicks in. The water heater is electric. The tank is leased and I pay a small yearly lease, I think it is $75. There are three propane suppliers in my community, I see one of their trucks on my street almost daily topping off the tanks of their customers.

I have no idea what the other companies individual rates are. But I know that in order to switch suppliers it could cost me a lot of money to have the supplier owned tank removed and a new one installed, whether I would own it or lease it from the new supplier.
So in a lot of ways, unless you actually own the tank, they kind of have you over a barrel and most people just continue to use the same supplier.

There is no "locking in" the cost for a season. It is seasonally adjusted to market rate. My house is 1400 square feet and during the winter months I keep the thermostat set to 60 in the daytime and 56 at night and I dress warm. The Southern California mountains experienced the harshest winter in decades and my last two propane bills were around $720 each. Ouch ! I'm sure glad it is finally spring. In the spring and summer $300 worth of propane generally will last 3 months.

 

[alarmguy]

Can't imagine a water heater being installed in a place where it would get cold enough that a hpwh wouldn't work. You run the risk of freezing pipes.

If in a basement, it will help to dehumidify the basement, which could make your AC not have to work as hard removing moisture from the air.

New construction in the Carolinas for the last couple decades water heaters are placed in the garage if you are within 100 or so miles of the coast.

 

[alarmguy]

Keep us posted how long that propane tank lasts supplying the tankless water heater.

I’ll bookmark this page and hope to report back in a year.
I don’t think you can do it month to month because the top off your tank whenever in the area which is all the time as there are well over hundreds of homes here may be very low thousands