DOT disallows Delta ban on Pitbulls as service animals

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Originally Posted by Garak
I'd agree. Is there any dog breed more ill mannered than a chihuahua? Of course, they don't have the physical presence to make the news or cause a moral panic.
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LOL: I happen to have a chihuahua (Linus) and he's very territorial. Cracks me up when he tries to act like a tough guy. Oddly enough, he is the absolute ruler over the pitbull despite a 10:1 weight disadvantage.

Ray
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
Likely yes like I posted earlier a lot of people misidentify pit bulls for something else and the graphic of a steroided up freak of nature with cropped ears over pronounced head and docked tail is not a pit bull. It is a designer dog some "person" felt like they needed an animal to stroke their ego.


Get what you're saying here Dave but even if they've been bred into your designer dog description are the blood lines still pit bull? I'm no dog show judge but when I see a dog I think pit bull or beagle or cattle dog or bulldog based on it's overall appearance. Do you think all of these pit bull fatalities are by freak dogs?

The fatality chart I linked was one of many you can find easily. One thing they all have in common that I looked at is the top 2 dogs are pit bull and rottweiler and the pit has far more deaths than the rott. Note on this chart the #4 dog listed is mixed breed. I also don't see how determining how many fatalities per 100,000 dogs of the breed changes anything anymore than what type of human was killed, infant, elderly, etc.

Many insurance companies have prohibited breeds that they won't cover, pit bull is the number one breed prohibited according to some sources.
 
A lot of the risk comes down to capability. I have a chihuahua and a Labrador. Very different personalities. The chihuahua is 10 pounds and is the dominant one. The Labrador is 90 pounds. He is significantly more aggressive but due to his size he really isn't capable of much of anything and is more bark than bite. She is capable of inflicting harm because of her size yet her temperament is great and she loves everyone and has never shown any aggression. She's a great watch dog but I don't think she would have it in her to actually defend us. I believe that raising them right makes a big difference but I also believe that breed is and always will be a factor. Retrievers tend to like to play fetch, herding dogs like to nip ankles, etc. Aggression against other animals is not at all uncommon with bully breeds. I think they can still make great pets but not for everyone and probably not the best choice for beginners.
 
I must have had a repressed experience as a child with a chihuahua. Anytime I get close to one, I have the suspicion in the back of my mind that I should be wearing welding gloves.
 
Pit Bull s seem to have a habit of going from sweet and lovable to viscous killer at weird times. They should not be allowed in public without being muzzled and never allowed in closed spaces such as air planes. Takes a different kind of individual to even want a Pit Bull as a house pet. I think this is an acceptable politically correct way to express my feeling. Ed
 
Originally Posted by Black_Thunder
A lot of people don't even know what a pitbull looks like either


You're the 2nd person to say that. How about a pic of what a pit bull is supposed to look like?
 
My Pitbull Terriers may lick you to death.......Watch out!!

But seriously.....My grandfather always had PBT's & that's where my interest in them comes from, Not a Rap video or to be cool or to portray some tough guy persona. In fact I've had PBT's long before they were seen/used as a Gangster Accessory.

They have to be one of the easiest breeds to train, House Break/Boundaries/Signals.....They can be hyperactive & do not like seclusion. Chaining one up in a backyard is the worst thing you could do.
Regular exercise...While important to any dog, Is especially important for a PBT!

You/I/Us.....PBT owners have to be Alpha, It's the only way it works.


The misidentification of PBT's is a major issue as is the breeding practices to "Bulk" them up. Real PBT's are not very large dogs & are dwarfed by German Shepards & Rottweilers.
 
Originally Posted by AZjeff
Originally Posted by Black_Thunder
A lot of people don't even know what a pitbull looks like either


You're the 2nd person to say that. How about a pic of what a pit bull is supposed to look like?







[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



This was my brothers dog. She passed on this last spring. Was a very well mannered dog. She was almost 15 years old. Her best bud was a cat and she was fine around people and even kids.
 
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Originally Posted by 14Accent
DOT says Delta's ban on pitbulls is not allowed

*Full disclosure: I do own a pitbull. I do not claim that she is a service animal/ESA under any circumstances, nor am I disabled in any way.*

I know this will be a sensitive topic, so hopefully this doesn't get locked. I'm not here to proclaim that my dog is somehow the one pitbull in the world that's not dangerous (she's not), nor am I here to say that there isn't a single problem pitbull in the world (there are many).

I'm quite sure this "issue" will get swept under the rug quickly, however I'm proud of the DOT for stepping up and telling Delta that if they want rules, they have to be applied equally. It's either dogs, or no dogs. I'm 100% sure that Delta banned bully breeds to save face, because the media LOVES any story involving a bully breed and an "attack". Bad publicity I understand, discrimination I do not.

If this gets out of hand Mods, feel free to lock. It just hurts, as the owner of a sweet and loving pitbull, to be told that my dog should be "bred out of existence" or "eradicated". My dog was starved, left as a stray, hit by a car, and survived pneumonia all before she was a year old. She's never so much as growled at human being, and currently sleeps with my new roommates daughter every night like she's running security.

I like to think that one day the public opinion will change, but unfortunately I doubt it. I would love see any other member's Pitts, or dogs in general, all in good spirits!

Shameless Pittie Portrait time:

DOT should Shut Delta down if it happens again. basically it boils down to be in compliance or shut down your operation
 
Originally Posted by Black_Thunder

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



This was my brothers dog. She passed on this last spring. Was a very well mannered dog. She was almost 15 years old. Her best bud was a cat and she was fine around people and even kids.


Not very good pics of the dog, you couldn't identify the breed from those. What about some breed standard pics?

This pic is on Wikipedia. Is it breed representative?
[Linked Image]


Serious question: Do PB owners/defenders think all of these reported attacks and fatalities are by abused hybrid mutant not really pit bull dogs?
 
PBT have very crisp specific markings.....If that dog was 100% ABPT, I would surprised, Looks to be a cross with a Retriever or a Sheep dog.

My 2 fixed females.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
 
Originally Posted by Black_Thunder

Originally Posted by AZjeff
Originally Posted by Black_Thunder
A lot of people don't even know what a pitbull looks like either


You're the 2nd person to say that. How about a pic of what a pit bull is supposed to look like?







[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



This was my brothers dog. She passed on this last spring. Was a very well mannered dog. She was almost 15 years old. Her best bud was a cat and she was fine around people and even kids.

Looks like a mutt to me.

People say what their dog's breed is all the time.

A family member has a dog that the previous owner said it was a sheep dog mix, so she calls it that too. It's a freaking Cairn Terrier.
 
I don't think she was a mix, she was registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier.


you can argue with the veterinarian, they knew she was a pitbull when we took her in for her first check up.
 
Originally Posted by Black_Thunder

Originally Posted by AZjeff
Originally Posted by Black_Thunder
A lot of people don't even know what a pitbull looks like either


You're the 2nd person to say that. How about a pic of what a pit bull is supposed to look like?



[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


This was my brothers dog. She passed on this last spring. Was a very well mannered dog. She was almost 15 years old. Her best bud was a cat and she was fine around people and even kids.


This dog here is a pit-mix and looks to be mainly APBT (Americal Pit Bull Terrier). And I can tell by the look in it's eyes and relaxed body style, that dog did not have a mean bone in it's body. These are about as human friendly and loyal as they get. Here is the characteristic write-up from the American Kennel Club. BTW: The American Kennel club is the officiating source that tracks blood lines and runs all the major dog shows etc. "The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.".

As others have mentioned, many people have no clue what a fighting PB looks like. Any dog that has hair on it's body more than a half-inch long is not a PB or is watered-down with labrador.
 
Originally Posted by AZjeff


Serious question: Do PB owners/defenders think all of these reported attacks and fatalities are by abused hybrid mutant not really pit bull dogs?




Jeff,

To answer your question... I personally think PBs (or any kind of dog) which attack people and other dogs have two common traits. They many have come from a breeder who intentionally selected/mated aggressive breeding stock. This happens more than you think because dog fighting happens a lot more than it should. Does Michael Vick ring a bell? There are low-lifes all over that are totally into dog-fighting. This is the type of dog that will bite and not let go even when it's owner demands it to release. Next is when the dog is owned by someone who has no clue how to own/train a dog or, trained the dog to be aggressive since birth. Take those two traits and bad things can happen.

Another thing worth mentioning. Size matters! Take the toughest PB in the 60lb range against a 120lb German Shepard and the PB will lose every time. There are retired police dogs all over the Country and they are not given-up for general adoption -only given to former law officers or trained/registered owners. There's a reason for that! Same thing for Military dogs -and I'm not even sure if military dogs can be adopted these days except under special circumstances. The difference between the two breeds is that Police/Military dogs come from breeding stock of well behaved lineage. In the dog fighting world, there are human fools out there intentionally creating Frankensteins.

The traditional pibull is "Pete" from "Our Gang". This is the traditional American farm dog -a PB at the very core. These dogs are as human friendly as they get and also protective of livestock -because that is how and why they were created.


Ray



Pete.jpg
 
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We've had this conversation before.
There is a difference, a very important one, between service animals and emotional support animals.
No person or company can ban a qualified service animal in the States. Service animals go thought significant detailed training by licensed companies, with specific purposes for the animal.
ESAs, in my opinion, are not without controversy and I believe any person or company should be able to ban them if they can reasonably justify the effort, even on an "as needed" basis.
Remember the whom desired her ESA peacock to the on the flight? Or the ESA snake. It's already gotten ridiculous; this thread just illuminates the topic is continuing.
For the rest of my response, I'm going to exclude true "service animals" and only speak to the topic of ESAs. I fully accept that true service animals have bonafide purposes. ESAs, however, are where the disagreement starts.

It's entirely possible that a pit bull can serve as an ESA. But there's plenty of reliable data to indicate that breed is also a very large risk to public safety. While I do accept that we would like to believe that banning is affront to freedoms, the reality is we do it all the time. We, as a society, generalize. And for good reason.
- It's possible that a person could drive drunk, and never hit anything, but we don't want to take that chance; OWI is considered "banned" because data shows they have a far greater propensity to get into accidents and hurt other people or damage other people's property
- It's possible that a person in 1000 could haplessly discharge a firearm into the air in celebration in a crowded area without it hurting someone, but we don't allow that either; too much risk to the general public

And it's possible any animal breed (dog, raccoon, chicken, pony, etc) could fly on a plane and not hurt anyone, but there are some breeds that have proven seriously dangerous. "Seriously dangerous" is a combination of motive and opportunity, in a legal sense. There are lots of small dogs that might bite, but they simply cannot kill in an acute sense. Pit bull type dogs have both the propensity AND the ability to seriously harm/kill people and other animals.


Further, why is it that people treat air travel differently in a sense of "rights"? No one has a "right" to air travel. It is true that there are laws that prohibit the discrimination of certain issues (race, religion, gender) which do apply, but that is not unique to air travel; it covers essentially all human presence in the States. However, there is no law that assures you a "right" to take an emotional support animal with you on a conveyance that flies in the air. Do we hear about people boarding buses with ESAs and demanding to have the animal board? Should Greyhound be forced to admit that pet llama onto the bus just because farmer Joe cannot live comfortably without it? Further, why not apply this concept to other venues, such as restaurants or movie theaters. Do you have a "right" to take your ESA boa constrictor into the bar to get a beer? Do you have a right to take your ESA pet possum into Arby's or McD's? Why is it that when we talk about planes, it suddenly becomes a matter of bias that people must be allowed their penchant for animal presence? Restaurants have the right to ban ESAs. Movie theaters also. Should we allow ESAs into the sports arena also? You want to sit next to someone with a pet monkey at the next college football game you attend, knowing that monkeys are very hyper, prone to defecation shenanigans, and often spit as a means of defense when they feel threatened?

Your right to have an ESA does not usurp my right to be free of a sensible fear of being attacked or otherwise physically breached in a some manner. Your right to have an ESA does not usurp the right of a company to provide a generally controlled and safe environment for all it's patrons.

For every one person that wants to take their ESA pit bull on a flight, there are 150 others that reasonably believe that the risk outweighs the reward.
For every one person that wants to take their ESA pit bull into a confined venue, there are hundreds of companies that fear the impending litigation of anyone whom is injured because the airline/restaurant/theater/arena contributed to unsafe conditions by allowing the animal to be present.

The venue (airline, bar, theater, whatever) should be free to operate as it deems fit. If the owner of the ESA does not like that they cannot take their species into the venue, then they are free to choose another venue, or start their own business that would provide that service to others of like mind.
In contrast, if the venue does choose to allow the animal, then I have a right to take my business elsewhere.
The problem comes into play where you buy a ticket to the venue; how to you know if you'll be seated next to a pleasant person, or a breed of animal proven to have a propensity to attack and harm?

Your rights to have an ESA do not usurp the rights of others. Your rights stop where mine starts.
 
Originally Posted by mk378
Originally Posted by dlundblad

Ever hear of a cow trampling a child? I have.

Which is one of the reasons why cows aren't allowed in the cabin of an airliner.

Would anyone who trains actual working service dogs (not "comfort animals", i.e. pets) consider a young pitbull as a viable candidate?




So do cow owners belong in prison too?

That comment was the entire reason I posted in this thread. Go back and read rather than jumping into a discussion and taking my post out of context.

Thanks.
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
You don't research much do you?

What I do or don't do is immaterial. You can bet insurance companies have "researched" this endlessly. The results they have obtained speak for themselves. Opinions don't matter when it comes to establishing pricing of homeowners liability insurance premiums.... Or if they'll even write a policy. Which most won't in many areas if you possess a breed they determine as "aggressive".
 
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