Does wrapping pipes do any good?

[Virtus_Probi]

We certainly don't think of it as hot, but water coming out of the ground has to be above freezing even in winter, right?
You're insulating between that liquid water above 32F and air that is below freezing. I would think that any insulation there should help for short enough periods of time, but now I see Shannow's comment about pipes below 1/4"...is this true mostly for really thin insulators like tape? I'd think that something like a layer of foam wrapped in tape couldn't hurt no matter the pipe size, but that doesn't mean it's true.

 

[supton]

I wonder how far heat can travel. I mean, most pipes, at least they used to be, were copper. Water can conduct heat but copper is better. So if your water heater is keeping its end at 150F, then there is a gradient down the water line.

Water might not conduct heat too well but slap some insulation over a copper pipe and I wonder if the water heater can keep the line warm just by conducting heat down the pipe wall instead.

 

[Papa Bear]

Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Yes but I'm a human. A pipe isn't going to create it's own heat.


Are you wrapping the pipe to save energy or to keep from freezing ??

 

[krismoriah72]

I live in an old farmhouse that has been remodeled with copper pipes underneath. A few years ago i replaced all plumbing underneath with copper the guy that did it was a semi-retired plumber and he insulated everything pretty good but told me that i will still probably have freeze ups due to the large amount of area underneath the house, its underpinned well but still you cant overcome near zero weather.

He installed sharkbites at easy to access points and said that if the pipes freeze the sharkbites will give way first..so you dont have to replace lines just the sharkbites. So far he has been right.

My meter froze at the end of my road so i lost all incoming water and couldnt leave water dripping.. the water that lay in the lines froze..and the sharkbite points were the weakest link.

Since then i have added a shower in another part of the house, and the plumber told me that I would be wiser to replace all with PEX. He said that it expands when frozen and doesnt bust and i would be 'better off in the longrun' to replace with PEX.

 

[JMJNet]

For Houston, wrapping pipe will be good and probably better than not wraping it.

Make sure you drip the faucet to have water movement inside the pipe.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
I live in an old farmhouse that has been remodeled with copper pipes underneath. A few years ago i replaced all plumbing underneath with copper the guy that did it was a semi-retired plumber and he insulated everything pretty good but told me that i will still probably have freeze ups due to the large amount of area underneath the house, its underpinned well but still you cant overcome near zero weather.

He installed sharkbites at easy to access points and said that if the pipes freeze the sharkbites will give way first..so you dont have to replace lines just the sharkbites. So far he has been right.

My meter froze at the end of my road so i lost all incoming water and couldnt leave water dripping.. the water that lay in the lines froze..and the sharkbite points were the weakest link.

Since then i have added a shower in another part of the house, and the plumber told me that I would be wiser to replace all with PEX. He said that it expands when frozen and doesnt bust and i would be 'better off in the longrun' to replace with PEX.


Is your floor insulated then? And the pipe are below that?
I'd insulate the perimiter of the basement as you save on heating costs as well.

 

[Doc8404]

Originally Posted By: tig1
If you have a problem with freezing pipes, then wrap the pipe with heat tape and then cover that with pipe insulation. That will protect the pipe down to below zero.


Just make sure the pipe is not plastic. It seems common sense but I had a buddy up north did that to his sewage drain pipe at his camp. Luckily we caught it before it melted.

 

[krismoriah72]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
I live in an old farmhouse that has been remodeled with copper pipes underneath. A few years ago i replaced all plumbing underneath with copper the guy that did it was a semi-retired plumber and he insulated everything pretty good but told me that i will still probably have freeze ups due to the large amount of area underneath the house, its underpinned well but still you cant overcome near zero weather.

He installed sharkbites at easy to access points and said that if the pipes freeze the sharkbites will give way first..so you dont have to replace lines just the sharkbites. So far he has been right.

My meter froze at the end of my road so i lost all incoming water and couldnt leave water dripping.. the water that lay in the lines froze..and the sharkbite points were the weakest link.

Since then i have added a shower in another part of the house, and the plumber told me that I would be wiser to replace all with PEX. He said that it expands when frozen and doesnt bust and i would be 'better off in the longrun' to replace with PEX.


Is your floor insulated then? And the pipe are below that?
I'd insulate the perimiter of the basement as you save on heating costs as well.


No floors are 100 year old hardwood oak, beams under house are timbers and joists are hand hewn sandstone. No basement just a crawlspace between the floor and the ground which my father covered with plastic sheeting.

Heating costs- Free Natural gas.. so no heating costs for the house.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

A crawlspace should be insulated around the perimeter of the foundation, and have a sealed plastic barrier from the ground to the insulation on the foundation to minimize moisture ingress. Then the crawlspace should receive conditioned (heated/cooled) forced air just like the rest of the living spaces. This essentially eliminates frozen pipes and/or moisture-related problems like rot or mold. The additional cost to condition the air in the crawlspace is minimal if the airtightness and insulation are done properly.

Those slide-open vents of old are a big no-no and should be sealed up anytime they are present.

 

[ecotourist]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
I've never understood this. Keeping it out of the wind isn't going to keep it warmer. This goes back to that engineering 101 thing where wind chill wont cool something cooler than ambient air temp.


Insulation of course provides...insulation.

A thermal barrier that reduces the rate of heat transfer to/from the environment, so therefore by definition works (does good). It doesn't make the heat transfer zero, it can't nothing will, so the posters who say it buys you time are correct.

But if you only go sub freezing overnight, it works great (does good).

If the pipe is under about 1/4", then the extra surface area that the insulation provides can actually worsen the freezing.

Yes. The increased surface area of the insulation actually increases the rate of heat loss for small diameter pipes. It sounds all wrong but that is correct. We worked through the math in a thermodynamics lab - somewhere back there in the mists of time.

I have a long run of 5/8" OD copper pipes in my unheated crawl space. The hot water line was helpfully covered with foam insulation the last time the plumbers were here. There is some passive heating and the outer walls are insulated so it never freezes in the crawl space. I didn't notice much, if any, change in the supply of hot water. The tap runs still cold if you try to wash your hands in the middle of the night. But I suspect it would cut down on the chances of a water pipe freezing if it was even colder down there. Though you'd obviously have to cover the cold water pipe too if that was the objective.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Yes but I'm a human. A pipe isn't going to create it's own heat.


It goes into the ground which is a pretty big heat sink.

 

[ecotourist]

Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
My meter froze at the end of my road so i lost all incoming water and couldnt leave water dripping.. the water that lay in the lines froze..and the sharkbite points were the weakest link.

In this situation it would have been nice to have a hot and cold water tap in the crawl space. By opening them and a hot and cold tap on an upper floor, you could have drained the water out of your system before it froze. Having drained the system, you would of course had to close the taps again, against the day when the water line thawed. You'd have to think carefully about your hot water heater too. You don't want the heat on if it's empty and you don't want to let it freeze if it's full of water either; depending on the situation it might be safest to simply turn off its heat supply and drain it.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
I live in an old farmhouse that has been remodeled with copper pipes underneath. A few years ago i replaced all plumbing underneath with copper the guy that did it was a semi-retired plumber and he insulated everything pretty good but told me that i will still probably have freeze ups due to the large amount of area underneath the house, its underpinned well but still you cant overcome near zero weather.

He installed sharkbites at easy to access points and said that if the pipes freeze the sharkbites will give way first..so you dont have to replace lines just the sharkbites. So far he has been right.

My meter froze at the end of my road so i lost all incoming water and couldnt leave water dripping.. the water that lay in the lines froze..and the sharkbite points were the weakest link.

Since then i have added a shower in another part of the house, and the plumber told me that I would be wiser to replace all with PEX. He said that it expands when frozen and doesnt bust and i would be 'better off in the longrun' to replace with PEX.


Is your floor insulated then? And the pipe are below that?
I'd insulate the perimiter of the basement as you save on heating costs as well.


No floors are 100 year old hardwood oak, beams under house are timbers and joists are hand hewn sandstone. No basement just a crawlspace between the floor and the ground which my father covered with plastic sheeting.

Heating costs- Free Natural gas.. so no heating costs for the house.


Then don't [censored] around with heat tape and pex. Run a big duct into the crawlspace and let it rip! Run the furnace WFO all winter baby!

Probably you should start up a greenhouse or something, make the free gas pay.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: rsylvstr
Originally Posted By: tig1
If you have a problem with freezing pipes, then wrap the pipe with heat tape and then cover that with pipe insulation. That will protect the pipe down to below zero.


Just make sure the pipe is not plastic. It seems common sense but I had a buddy up north did that to his sewage drain pipe at his camp. Luckily we caught it before it melted.


Most common heat tape works fine on PVC pipe. Other types of heat tape, like for gutters, etc is not. Common heat tape has a thermostat and the pipe doesn't get all that warm. In fact you should cover the pipe and heat tape with foam insulation.

http://www.foremost.com/mygreathome/mobile-home-repair/seasonal/how-to-install-heat-tape.asp