imo, i think synthetics are a waste in regular passenger cars. majority of the cars you see on the road with 300k+ use regular dino oil, what does that say?
Does synthetic have advantages over modern dino?
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My good friend uses dino oil only. Quality stuff, but refuses to use synthetic. I took the cap off of his BMW yesterday. YUCK. Sorry, but dino oil is not there yet. It results in varnish and sludge. 1,000,000 Toyota sludged engines can't be wrong
I'd say yes, but not enough to justify cost (especially since IMHO those advantages are highly overrated, overkill and small).
How many people actually drive their engine until it wears out from mechanical wear? How many more instances are there of cars rusting out, wrecking, transmissions failing, blown differentials, cracked heads, bad head gasket, overheating, bad fuel pumps, electrical gremlins etc. that send a car to a junkyard before the engine has problems from mechanical wear?
When a car is worth $1000, most junk it after the next major repair comes along.
Remember that some folks have put 1,000,000 miles on dino oil. I'd say engine design has much much much more bearing on longevity than the type of lubricant used in it.
One example that comes to mind is crown vic NYC taxi cabs that they torture for 500,000 miles with cheap bulk 5w20 dino. I've been in taxi cabs with almost 400,000 miles on them.
How many people actually drive their engine until it wears out from mechanical wear? How many more instances are there of cars rusting out, wrecking, transmissions failing, blown differentials, cracked heads, bad head gasket, overheating, bad fuel pumps, electrical gremlins etc. that send a car to a junkyard before the engine has problems from mechanical wear?
When a car is worth $1000, most junk it after the next major repair comes along.
Remember that some folks have put 1,000,000 miles on dino oil. I'd say engine design has much much much more bearing on longevity than the type of lubricant used in it.
One example that comes to mind is crown vic NYC taxi cabs that they torture for 500,000 miles with cheap bulk 5w20 dino. I've been in taxi cabs with almost 400,000 miles on them.
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Originally Posted By: Cujet
My good friend uses dino oil only. Quality stuff, but refuses to use synthetic. I took the cap off of his BMW yesterday. YUCK. Sorry, but dino oil is not there yet. It results in varnish and sludge. 1,000,000 Toyota sludged engines can't be wrong
Would grp III based synthetics that were on the market over those 1 mil miles in the same engine done anything different?
My good friend uses dino oil only. Quality stuff, but refuses to use synthetic. I took the cap off of his BMW yesterday. YUCK. Sorry, but dino oil is not there yet. It results in varnish and sludge. 1,000,000 Toyota sludged engines can't be wrong
Would grp III based synthetics that were on the market over those 1 mil miles in the same engine done anything different?
Originally Posted By: calvinnnnnnnnn
imo, i think synthetics are a waste in regular passenger cars. majority of the cars you see on the road with 300k+ use regular dino oil, what does that say?
What's the percentage of synthetic oil versus dino. You have a lot more vehicles with dino oil on the road. Also what's the percentage of dino oil users that never made it to 300,000 miles due to using dino oil. Of those that didn't make it to 300,000 miles would synthetic oil made a difference?
imo, i think synthetics are a waste in regular passenger cars. majority of the cars you see on the road with 300k+ use regular dino oil, what does that say?
What's the percentage of synthetic oil versus dino. You have a lot more vehicles with dino oil on the road. Also what's the percentage of dino oil users that never made it to 300,000 miles due to using dino oil. Of those that didn't make it to 300,000 miles would synthetic oil made a difference?
Originally Posted By: Cujet
My good friend uses dino oil only. Quality stuff, but refuses to use synthetic. I took the cap off of his BMW yesterday. YUCK. Sorry, but dino oil is not there yet. It results in varnish and sludge. 1,000,000 Toyota sludged engines can't be wrong
Take off the valve cover and you may be surprised to find everything perfectly clean EXCEPT for the oil filler cap
My good friend uses dino oil only. Quality stuff, but refuses to use synthetic. I took the cap off of his BMW yesterday. YUCK. Sorry, but dino oil is not there yet. It results in varnish and sludge. 1,000,000 Toyota sludged engines can't be wrong
Take off the valve cover and you may be surprised to find everything perfectly clean EXCEPT for the oil filler cap
Originally Posted By: snakyjake
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
many fail to realize the advantages of syns in the heat. The mfg's turbo recommendations and/or requirements validate this point.
There's the assumption that the outside temperature or having a turbo means higher temperature. But what about the upgraded cooling system or adding an oil cooler? That should dissipate the heat from the turbo or from hot weather.
If your engine temperature operates in the viscosity range of the oil, why the problem?
For us that don't have a gasoline turbo...I haven't read any scientific evidence of today's synthetics offering better wear protection than today's conventional oil. I haven't seen UOA prove it. Blackstone themselves use dino for personal use, not synthetics. All the UOA show is when to change the oil. Or said another way, under normal conditions, UOA proves all current API rated oils perform the same under 3000 miles. It isn't until you get to the extended miles that competing oils indicate their advantages. There are also people talking about today's modern oils now commoditized...no real differences between brands (which is probably why no one can claim the #1 ranked best oil).
When I read the marketing material for diesel dinos/syn, Chevron nor Shell marketed their synthetics as having better wear protection. I figure that if synthetics were better, they would be marketing the scientific facts, but they aren't. They are marketing cold temperatures (no mention of hot temps) and extended oil drains.
Highly elevated localized temperatures in and around the immediate vicinity of the turbo are mostly to blame for increased oil degradation. The average temperature of the system remains similar otherwise. Makes sense?
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
many fail to realize the advantages of syns in the heat. The mfg's turbo recommendations and/or requirements validate this point.
There's the assumption that the outside temperature or having a turbo means higher temperature. But what about the upgraded cooling system or adding an oil cooler? That should dissipate the heat from the turbo or from hot weather.
If your engine temperature operates in the viscosity range of the oil, why the problem?
For us that don't have a gasoline turbo...I haven't read any scientific evidence of today's synthetics offering better wear protection than today's conventional oil. I haven't seen UOA prove it. Blackstone themselves use dino for personal use, not synthetics. All the UOA show is when to change the oil. Or said another way, under normal conditions, UOA proves all current API rated oils perform the same under 3000 miles. It isn't until you get to the extended miles that competing oils indicate their advantages. There are also people talking about today's modern oils now commoditized...no real differences between brands (which is probably why no one can claim the #1 ranked best oil).
When I read the marketing material for diesel dinos/syn, Chevron nor Shell marketed their synthetics as having better wear protection. I figure that if synthetics were better, they would be marketing the scientific facts, but they aren't. They are marketing cold temperatures (no mention of hot temps) and extended oil drains.
Highly elevated localized temperatures in and around the immediate vicinity of the turbo are mostly to blame for increased oil degradation. The average temperature of the system remains similar otherwise. Makes sense?
It really would depend . The better question would be , will I really benefit from the advantages the syn base stocks offer me . For example do I start the car in sub freezing temps? Because of how the car is driven have high oil temps? Do I take advantage of the extended oil change intervals. Todays dino oil are really all you need if you do not use the advantages of syn oils.
Just one way synt oil is better is for the non BITOGER who uses and abuses dino . There are many of them out there. Dino is fine for the most part if you change it out at 5000 miles, but many, I have meet some, forget about their oil and don't change it for 10-15,000 miles. It's this consumer that would benefit from synt. Many engines fail because of ring coking, excessive sludging, etc. because of abusing dino. Synt gives an extra level of deposit control that dino doesn't have under these conditions.IMMHO!
Originally Posted By: toyotaguy
I don't know. I think synthetics must offer something more then dinos. Why would certain autos require the use of synthetics. Like the Bmw's MB Porch
A little thinking about the subject would help .Let me think . Well the oil change intervals are more than 5,000 miles to start with.
I don't know. I think synthetics must offer something more then dinos. Why would certain autos require the use of synthetics. Like the Bmw's MB Porch
A little thinking about the subject would help .Let me think . Well the oil change intervals are more than 5,000 miles to start with.
Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay
Originally Posted By: calvinnnnnnnnn
imo, i think synthetics are a waste in regular passenger cars. majority of the cars you see on the road with 300k+ use regular dino oil, what does that say?
What's the percentage of synthetic oil versus dino. You have a lot more vehicles with dino oil on the road. Also what's the percentage of dino oil users that never made it to 300,000 miles due to using dino oil. Of those that didn't make it to 300,000 miles would synthetic oil made a difference?
It has been my experience that it is the care and maintenance of the vehicle "with luck of the draw" that allows the engine to make it to 300,000 miles . I would say that most people who use syn oils are more apt to maintain their vehicles than those who don't care about the maintainence cars.
Originally Posted By: calvinnnnnnnnn
imo, i think synthetics are a waste in regular passenger cars. majority of the cars you see on the road with 300k+ use regular dino oil, what does that say?
What's the percentage of synthetic oil versus dino. You have a lot more vehicles with dino oil on the road. Also what's the percentage of dino oil users that never made it to 300,000 miles due to using dino oil. Of those that didn't make it to 300,000 miles would synthetic oil made a difference?
It has been my experience that it is the care and maintenance of the vehicle "with luck of the draw" that allows the engine to make it to 300,000 miles . I would say that most people who use syn oils are more apt to maintain their vehicles than those who don't care about the maintainence cars.
Originally Posted By: snakyjake
And the #1 reason why there isn't much difference...they both meet the same API ratings. If synthetic was that much better, I would expect different and higher API ratings (or some other rating and testing).
That is just a red herring. If that's the "#1 reason" the evidence must be very weak. There are only the minimal API ratings (and you are really referring to Sequence testing in ILSAC) Make it over the bar, you are in. Now I will say starting with GF-3 the testing did become much more rigorous. That said, some synthetic oil companies do run 2X and 3X - triple the length for all the test parameters.
Triple Length (240 hr.)
Kinematic Viscosity, % Increase at 40 C
Weighted Piston Deposit Rating 4.51
Average Piston Skirt Varnish Rating
Cam Plus Lifter Wear Average
Hot Stuck Rings
Something convention oil just can't handle.
And the #1 reason why there isn't much difference...they both meet the same API ratings. If synthetic was that much better, I would expect different and higher API ratings (or some other rating and testing).
That is just a red herring. If that's the "#1 reason" the evidence must be very weak. There are only the minimal API ratings (and you are really referring to Sequence testing in ILSAC) Make it over the bar, you are in. Now I will say starting with GF-3 the testing did become much more rigorous. That said, some synthetic oil companies do run 2X and 3X - triple the length for all the test parameters.
Triple Length (240 hr.)
Kinematic Viscosity, % Increase at 40 C
Weighted Piston Deposit Rating 4.51
Average Piston Skirt Varnish Rating
Cam Plus Lifter Wear Average
Hot Stuck Rings
Something convention oil just can't handle.
Why not reverse the question. If I use synthetic oil for extended drain say 12,000-15,000 miles would the synthetic oil serve it's purpose for those dino 3,000-5,000 miles and reach 300,000 miles.
Being with cost and less oil changes if the answer is yes I would use the synthetic oil as I've done for many years.
Being with cost and less oil changes if the answer is yes I would use the synthetic oil as I've done for many years.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: snakyjake
And the #1 reason why there isn't much difference...they both meet the same API ratings. If synthetic was that much better, I would expect different and higher API ratings (or some other rating and testing).
That is just a red herring. If that's the "#1 reason" the evidence must be very weak. There are only the minimal API ratings (and you are really referring to Sequence testing in ILSAC) Make it over the bar, you are in. Now I will say starting with GF-3 the testing did become much more rigorous. That said, some synthetic oil companies do run 2X and 3X - triple the length for all the test parameters.
Triple Length (240 hr.)
Kinematic Viscosity, % Increase at 40 C
Weighted Piston Deposit Rating 4.51
Average Piston Skirt Varnish Rating
Cam Plus Lifter Wear Average
Hot Stuck Rings
Something convention oil just can't handle.
Can you please link me to current scientific proof not published by the oil manufacturers?
I seriously doubt oil manufacturers have a lot of incentive to surpass the minimum API rating. And the only thing the triple length is telling me is that a synthetic can last longer than conventional.
Originally Posted By: snakyjake
And the #1 reason why there isn't much difference...they both meet the same API ratings. If synthetic was that much better, I would expect different and higher API ratings (or some other rating and testing).
That is just a red herring. If that's the "#1 reason" the evidence must be very weak. There are only the minimal API ratings (and you are really referring to Sequence testing in ILSAC) Make it over the bar, you are in. Now I will say starting with GF-3 the testing did become much more rigorous. That said, some synthetic oil companies do run 2X and 3X - triple the length for all the test parameters.
Triple Length (240 hr.)
Kinematic Viscosity, % Increase at 40 C
Weighted Piston Deposit Rating 4.51
Average Piston Skirt Varnish Rating
Cam Plus Lifter Wear Average
Hot Stuck Rings
Something convention oil just can't handle.
Can you please link me to current scientific proof not published by the oil manufacturers?
I seriously doubt oil manufacturers have a lot of incentive to surpass the minimum API rating. And the only thing the triple length is telling me is that a synthetic can last longer than conventional.
Originally Posted By: toyotaguy
Or maybe that wasn't put right. Certain Synthetic oils are rated for certain vehicles, like the MB, BMW
And for some reason I see Japanese cars using cheap bulk conventional oil on the road a lot longer, with a lot less mechanical failures.
Or maybe that wasn't put right. Certain Synthetic oils are rated for certain vehicles, like the MB, BMW
And for some reason I see Japanese cars using cheap bulk conventional oil on the road a lot longer, with a lot less mechanical failures.
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