Disturbing trends in education ...

[I<3oil]

In my OPINION there is not a single answer, but several things do need to change:
* teacher pay should be performance based and not tenure based (the issue with that is what performance metrics are you going to use? Standardized testing? Amount of students that "pass" the class? Etc.)
* parents need to take back control of raising their kids, but that also means they have the DUTY to do so; they need to be parents of the kids and not friends with the kids. Parents need to toughen up their kids and the best way to do that is to not cut them slack. (Yes, this is a great thing to speak about but actually getting parents to do that is never going to happen, at least in this country. Homogenous countries that are a LOT smaller than the USA that place a huge emphasis on education and pay teachers at similar pay rates as that of lawyers and doctors are the countries who perform the best)
* school boards should focus on data and results, not hyperbole and "feelings" (What data and results? One can take a look at Japan and South Korea and their educational systems that generally operate off of this model. Suicides are way higher, also look at Japan and their weird porn and anime....stifling people isn't a good model either lol)
* keep the curriculums to core stuff, not fluff. The good old "three Rs" as it were, with some basic history and civics also (to a point, yes. most of the point of higher education is to create "well-rounded students and citizens", hence the Humanities and Social Science requirements for most degrees. We have technical degrees (AAS) that do still require some Gen Ed classes but the vast majority 75%+ of the degree are the technical classes)
* offer (but do not mandate) some life-skill courses like personal money management and credit development; kids won't learn this from parents who can't do it at home (disagree, mandate classes like personal finance, car loan APR, mortages, etc. whilst they're still in the K-12 school system. Offer classes like mechanical classes, trade classes, etc. We have students in our building trades program (the students actually build houses that realtors sell) that decide they want to jump into a 2-year program building a house and they've never touched a tape measure before, never used a nail gun before, etc.)

I'm gonna answer a couple of these

 

[I<3oil]

Here is another statistic for Percent Growth of Population in public Schools, 2000-2019 from the Center for Education Statistics; U.S. Dept. of Education:

Student Growth - 7.4%

Teachers - 8.7%

Administration - 87.6%

So you can see that the education budget has to go toward more Administration personnel than any other category.

I have two main reasons why this would be so:

1) Salaries for top Adm. positions such as Principals are about 4X that for teachers;

2) Additional personnel are needed to administrate the myriad of Title XX Fed program regulations in order to keep within the guidelines of those programs and which have to be maintained when local school boards accept Federal Monies.

Solutions: Do not accept any Federal monies, trim from the top down, pay teachers based on performance rather than tenure. and discourage membership in teachers unions.

1.) totally depends on the district...around here principals at a medium sized school (350-900 students) make around $75-90k a year. Starting teachers are $42-48k.

2.) The amount of personnel who deal with fed program regulations are fairly miniscule in comparison to programs like SPED. The answer is more jobs like occupational therapists, interrelated/SPED, psychologists, instructional coaches, etc.

 

[Pablo]

Means basically nothing. Your entire statement.

A few local decent schools in a sea of poop and a California award? Yay.

CA schools have some serious problems with dropouts and other discipline issues.

BUT they have some kids that are great at math and some schools have a math emphasis, which is great. But overall CA has lousy school rankings.

 

[JeffKeryk]

We cannot "fix" the education system overnight. But we can make a difference. Mentor a kid. Take them to a science lecture. Take them somewhere. Anywhere. Especially college campuses. See that they have the tools they need. I have some friends who have no formal education; maybe not even high school. But they are hard workers who do everything for their children. Let's just say I do a little, just a little. Daughter needed a Chromebook a couple of years ago; so we got one. Well, she's a sophmore at Santa Cruz HS, a cheerleader, on the track team, a Girl Scout, leads study groups and much more. She and I talk math and such. Let's just say things have paid off. I asked her what she was working on. Here yo go:

 

[JeffKeryk]

CA schools have some serious problems with dropouts and other discipline issues.

BUT they have some kids that are great at math and some schools have a math emphasis, which is great. But overall CA has lousy school rankings.

Perhaps we might look at what works and what doesn't?
Thanks Pablo. All good.

 

[Dave Hess]

Most public school systems today are pure trash due to the terrible leadership destroying young children’s minds.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

I have tediously read every post in this thread so now I will throw in my two cents worth.

The entire public school system is a monster that needs to be destroyed. It's all fake. Nowhere else for the rest of your life, in any situation, will you be in a group in which everyone's birthday (age) is within months of each person in the group. The atmosphere of a school classroom is entirely artificial, and no facts are even being taught, only politics, social agendas and perversion.

My wife and I Homeschooled our children. The ONLY time they were ever inside a public school during childhood years was when they were with their mother who was standing in line to vote. During their school years, we were members of HSLDA, which is Home School Legal Defense Association, based in Washington DC. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states.

The largest demographic group in the United States who homeschools their children is NOT doctors, lawyers, policemen or clergy.
It is public school teachers, including administrators. This tells us everything we need to know about the "system." Those who know it best, from the inside out, want THEIR kids to have no part in it.

The "right" to a "free public education" is nowhere in the US Constitution; it is in various state constitutions. Save America, slay the Beast.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have tediously read every post in this thread so now I will throw in my two cents worth.

The entire public school system is a monster that needs to be destroyed. It's all fake. Nowhere else for the rest of your life, in any situation, will you be in a group in which everyone's birthday (age) is within months of each person in the group. The atmosphere of a school classroom is entirely artificial, and no facts are even being taught, only politics, social agendas and perversion.

My wife and I Homeschooled our children. The ONLY time they were ever inside a public school during childhood years was when they were with their mother who was standing in line to vote. During their school years, we were members of HSLDA, which is Home School Legal Defense Association, based in Washington DC. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states.

The largest demographic group in the United States who homeschools their children is NOT doctors, lawyers, policemen or clergy.
It is public school teachers, including administrators. This tells us everything we need to know about the "system." Those who know it best, from the inside out, want THEIR kids to have no part in it.

The "right" to a "free public education" is nowhere in the US Constitution; it is in various state constitutions. Save America, slay the Beast.

Public school teachers taught, motovated and recognized me far more than anyone else in my life.
Public school saved my life.

 

[Rmay635703]

[QUOTE="I 1.) totally depends on the district...around here principals at a medium sized school (350-900 students) make around $75-90k a year. Starting teachers are $42-48k.

2.) The amount of personnel who deal with fed program regulations are fairly miniscule in comparison to programs like SPED. The answer is more jobs like occupational therapists, interrelated/SPED, psychologists, instructional coaches, etc.
[/QUOTE]
Most of the staff at a school aren’t full time staff, being contractor’s, permanent substitute assistants, etc.

Everyone that isn’t a full time teacher or administrative is going to not have traditional insurance options, exempt from unemployment and usually under $14/hr part time.

Bus drivers are usually in this category of part time and exempt from unemployment.

 

[CKN]

I have tediously read every post in this thread so now I will throw in my two cents worth.

The entire public school system is a monster that needs to be destroyed. It's all fake. Nowhere else for the rest of your life, in any situation, will you be in a group in which everyone's birthday (age) is within months of each person in the group. The atmosphere of a school classroom is entirely artificial, and no facts are even being taught, only politics, social agendas and perversion.

My wife and I Homeschooled our children. The ONLY time they were ever inside a public school during childhood years was when they were with their mother who was standing in line to vote. During their school years, we were members of HSLDA, which is Home School Legal Defense Association, based in Washington DC. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states.

The largest demographic group in the United States who homeschools their children is NOT doctors, lawyers, policemen or clergy.
It is public school teachers, including administrators. This tells us everything we need to know about the "system." Those who know it best, from the inside out, want THEIR kids to have no part in it.

The "right" to a "free public education" is nowhere in the US Constitution; it is in various state constitutions. Save America, slay the Beast.

Home schooling is whole can of worms as well. When my wife taught she had several kids that were "home schooled" and they were way behind grade level when they walked in to the public system.

 

[CKN]

I have tediously read every post in this thread so now I will throw in my two cents worth.

The entire public school system is a monster that needs to be destroyed. It's all fake. Nowhere else for the rest of your life, in any situation, will you be in a group in which everyone's birthday (age) is within months of each person in the group. The atmosphere of a school classroom is entirely artificial, and no facts are even being taught, only politics, social agendas and perversion.

My wife and I Homeschooled our children. The ONLY time they were ever inside a public school during childhood years was when they were with their mother who was standing in line to vote. During their school years, we were members of HSLDA, which is Home School Legal Defense Association, based in Washington DC. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states.

The largest demographic group in the United States who homeschools their children is NOT doctors, lawyers, policemen or clergy.
It is public school teachers, including administrators. This tells us everything we need to know about the "system." Those who know it best, from the inside out, want THEIR kids to have no part in it.

The "right" to a "free public education" is nowhere in the US Constitution; it is in various state constitutions. Save America, slay the Beast.

There is so much going on "between the lines" in your post. But I will leave it at that.......

 

[wwillson]

I absolutely loved helping my kids learn geometry and trig. Your picture sure brings back memories. They kinda thought it was strange that I liked the subject so much.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I absolutely loved helping my kids learn geometry and trig. Your picture sure brings back memories. They kinda thought it was strange that I liked the subject so much.

Mathematics is the language of Science.
Galileo said, “Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe".

Wish I knew more...

 

[AutoMechanic]

I think teacher pay definitely has something to do with it. They don’t get paid enough. Every teacher I had complained of low pay.

Also in my opinion another big reason is they are teaching harder subjects in school now than they used to. When my parents were in school they weren’t learning the same stuff I was. It wasn’t standard like it is now. I struggled tremendously in Algebra, Geometry and any math which were all graduation requirements. In fact I didn’t actually pass those classes instead I tried my hardest and made an F which was two or three points from a D so the teachers gave me D’s to pass so I wouldn’t have to do the class again. I also failed every math SOL test too. By one question but still failed lol. My parents the first time I brought home Geometry and Algebra were like what the heck are you learning this in high school for we didn’t learn this till college. My sister was able to help me a little bit but she didn’t really remember much of it either as she didn’t learn everything they taught in my time either. She graduated in 2010 I graduated in 2020. So that goes to me believing that the state has a lot to do with this. So that’s a consideration too. Just my opinion no facts to prove but that’s what I believe. I don’t believe it’s just one or two things causing it. But one thing I will say is no matter how little my math teacher was making she done everything in the world to help her students she would come in early, stay after, have sessions on Saturday I mean everything in the world. She done tons of 1 on 1 with me too. She also agreed with my parents because she is the same age as my parents and she said the standards now are definitely different from when her and my parents were in school. At least for the state of Virginia where we are. And that’s another thing it could vary state to state on what’s learned and not. Admittedly I have some learning disabilities but I was seeing tons of people in my class who we’re always sharp in all subjects struggling not just me pretty much everyone. So that leads me to believe that what’s being taught at certain age levels is too hard for the age group. Subjects like English, History etc were a piece of cake for me. Science I struggled some in because it was boring to me so I had a hard time focusing but I passed every year with a C or B. History and English were always an A. I always thought science would be strictly chemistry and making things boil and blow up lol. Not boring stuff like insects and photosynthesis lol. So that’s on me for doing bad in that class lol. We were supposed to dissect baby sharks but they closed schools before we got too.

And yes parenting too. I’m not a parent yet but I see way too many parents not doing enough to make sure their kids study and do well in school. And let them be wild in public too. My family couldn’t help me but always made sure I always had arrangements to get help if I needed it. I’d say the number of parents doing that for their students is definitely down even from just three years ago when I left school. Because I know a lot of people in different grades and literally from the time they come home to the time they go to bed it’s games and nothing else.

So I believe it’s multiple factors and not blaming any one group at all. Just in general it’s a little bit of everything tying together.

 

[I<3oil]

Most of the staff at a school aren’t full time staff, being contractor’s, permanent substitute assistants, etc.

Everyone that isn’t a full time teacher or administrative is going to not have traditional insurance options, exempt from unemployment and usually under $14/hr part time.

Bus drivers are usually in this category of part time and exempt from unemployment.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I think teacher pay definitely has something to do with it. They don’t get paid enough. Every teacher I had complained of low pay.

Also in my opinion another big reason is they are teaching harder subjects in school now than they used to. When my parents were in school they weren’t learning the same stuff I was. It wasn’t standard like it is now. I struggled tremendously in Algebra, Geometry and any math which were all graduation requirements. In fact I didn’t actually pass those classes instead I tried my hardest and made an F which was two or three points from a D so the teachers gave me D’s to pass so I wouldn’t have to do the class again. I also failed every math SOL test too. By one question but still failed lol. My parents the first time I brought home Geometry and Algebra were like what the heck are you learning this in high school for we didn’t learn this till college. My sister was able to help me a little bit but she didn’t really remember much of it either as she didn’t learn everything they taught in my time either. She graduated in 2010 I graduated in 2020. So that goes to me believing that the state has a lot to do with this. So that’s a consideration too. Just my opinion no facts to prove but that’s what I believe. I don’t believe it’s just one or two things causing it. But one thing I will say is no matter how little my math teacher was making she done everything in the world to help her students she would come in early, stay after, have sessions on Saturday I mean everything in the world. She done tons of 1 on 1 with me too. She also agreed with my parents because she is the same age as my parents and she said the standards now are definitely different from when her and my parents were in school. At least for the state of Virginia where we are. And that’s another thing it could vary state to state on what’s learned and not. Admittedly I have some learning disabilities but I was seeing tons of people in my class who we’re always sharp in all subjects struggling not just me pretty much everyone. So that leads me to believe that what’s being taught at certain age levels is too hard for the age group. Subjects like English, History etc were a piece of cake for me. Science I struggled some in because it was boring to me so I had a hard time focusing but I passed every year with a C or B. History and English were always an A. I always thought science would be strictly chemistry and making things boil and blow up lol. Not boring stuff like insects and photosynthesis lol. So that’s on me for doing bad in that class lol. We were supposed to dissect baby sharks but they closed schools before we got too.

And yes parenting too. I’m not a parent yet but I see way too many parents not doing enough to make sure their kids study and do well in school. And let them be wild in public too. My family couldn’t help me but always made sure I always had arrangements to get help if I needed it. I’d say the number of parents doing that for their students is definitely down even from just three years ago when I left school. Because I know a lot of people in different grades and literally from the time they come home to the time they go to bed it’s games and nothing else.

So I believe it’s multiple factors and not blaming any one group at all. Just in general it’s a little bit of everything tying together.

@AutoMechanic you speak of a common Mathematics learning experience. We are all geared a little differently. I smoked Math most of my life but hated Geometry. Still do. Ha! My belief is, we all learn differently. I am 100% convinced you could master those subjects if they were approached appropriately. I tutored Math to a few struggling younger students many years ago. Like anything else, it takes what it takes. Seeing that light go on was an incredible reward!

I'll tell you another thing; 99% of what I used in business was Arithmetic. Throw in a little Statistics and that's about it. That was my journey; your's will be different. You use Math every day. Every stinkin' day! Embrace that stuff!

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Total shock this one has not veered off the rails and into that ditch called Lock out Time! Congrats to posters for keeping between the ditches. My 2cents is the blame is shared almost equal at 50% poorly run local institutions with 50% blame on not enough if any support to the student from the family or home they come from.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Total shock this one has not veered off the rails and into that ditch called Lock out Time! Congrats to posters for keeping between the ditches. My 2cents is the blame is shared almost equal at 50% poorly run local institutions with 50% blame on not enough if any support to the student from the family or home they come from.

Yep. Ultimately it boils down to what you want. The tools are out there.

 

[ecotourist]

This is somewhat anedotal, but I also do have numbers I've tracked for years to base this on:

I teach chemistry at a local community college. The majority of my students for the main class I teach are pre-nursing, hoping to enter the ADN/RN program at my school. This is my 3rd year at the school, but I've been teaching a similar class to a similar body of students(albeit at a big urban state school) since 2015.

This past year felt like the worst crop of students I had. Math literacy was at an elementary school level for a good chunk of my students. I've never had so many complaints about how questions I've used for years were "confusing" or "didn"t make sense" which to me pointed to poor skills in reading comprehension.

There is a 20 question pre-test/post-test we've been giving in this department for years now. I have seen a downward trend in both the pre and post scores in the last 3 years.

I wondered if it was isolated to me, but I talk to the nursing program faculty and staff all the time. They require a certain minimum score in math and language on a standardized entrance exam. As it currently stands, the fall nursing class is shaping up to be the smallest in 30+ years because scores were so low. They're offering a second chance exam sometime this month, which is something they have never done before.

That may explain the unprecedented failure rate in nursing license exams in Quebec. The licensing body decided to hold the line on what constitutes a pass in spite of an ongoing nursing shortage.

 

[ET16]

I have tediously read every post in this thread so now I will throw in my two cents worth.

The entire public school system is a monster that needs to be destroyed. It's all fake. Nowhere else for the rest of your life, in any situation, will you be in a group in which everyone's birthday (age) is within months of each person in the group. The atmosphere of a school classroom is entirely artificial, and no facts are even being taught, only politics, social agendas and perversion.

My wife and I Homeschooled our children. The ONLY time they were ever inside a public school during childhood years was when they were with their mother who was standing in line to vote. During their school years, we were members of HSLDA, which is Home School Legal Defense Association, based in Washington DC. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states.

The largest demographic group in the United States who homeschools their children is NOT doctors, lawyers, policemen or clergy.
It is public school teachers, including administrators. This tells us everything we need to know about the "system." Those who know it best, from the inside out, want THEIR kids to have no part in it.

The "right" to a "free public education" is nowhere in the US Constitution; it is in various state constitutions. Save America, slay the Beast.

Have you read Deschooling Society by Ivan Illich? I read it in the '90s. I didn't agree with it finally, but it gives a good description of how an why we have schools in the first place.