Dealer added "BG ATC Plus® Automatic Transmission Conditioner" to my transmission flush, snake oil or helpful?
- Thread starter Owen Lucas
- Start date
Dealer put it in my Sequoia once way back. It did exactly as described. It created a slow, slide in no firm shift especially under load. Not exactly what I wanted when towing a trailer or boat uphill with 6 larger adults. Just felt like slipping. I complained to dealer and was told the tranny was "normal". So I said funny because it didn't do that prior it must have been abnormal and bad from factory for first like 50k. Multiple back and forth for a couple days complaining.
I then called had some emails with BG about it back then. I brought the to emails to dealer and went straight into service manager not the writer/adviser. Explained my problem nicely that they created. He called the writer and the technician that used it and kept saying tranny was normal and closed the door. He then called the head technician asked for my keys and said I could watch him do a full flush with just T-IV (14qts with machine hooked to cooler lines and truck running). Manager then asked me to come back 2 more times 1 week apart. They did it again both times while I watched. Never any issues with tranny after that, back to a firm shift like old school shift kit, not harsh just positive engagement. Never had issues with service after that either whatever note came up. TSB's etc addressed promptly.
And overall I am a BG fan. I use and recommend the 44k fuel cleaner, BG EPR, I swear SynchroShift II saved my Corolla tranny that multiple places said I needed rebuild for grinding (5MT), Dads friend did a "decarbonize" on my '94 Exploder that would ping like crazy. He used all BG stuff and did a before and after borescope which was a huge difference and ping was gone.
The ATC+ is a friction modifier as best as I can tell like LubeGard. It did exactly what it claimed on creating softer shifts so snake oil or does what it claims?
I then called had some emails with BG about it back then. I brought the to emails to dealer and went straight into service manager not the writer/adviser. Explained my problem nicely that they created. He called the writer and the technician that used it and kept saying tranny was normal and closed the door. He then called the head technician asked for my keys and said I could watch him do a full flush with just T-IV (14qts with machine hooked to cooler lines and truck running). Manager then asked me to come back 2 more times 1 week apart. They did it again both times while I watched. Never any issues with tranny after that, back to a firm shift like old school shift kit, not harsh just positive engagement. Never had issues with service after that either whatever note came up. TSB's etc addressed promptly.
And overall I am a BG fan. I use and recommend the 44k fuel cleaner, BG EPR, I swear SynchroShift II saved my Corolla tranny that multiple places said I needed rebuild for grinding (5MT), Dads friend did a "decarbonize" on my '94 Exploder that would ping like crazy. He used all BG stuff and did a before and after borescope which was a huge difference and ping was gone.
The ATC+ is a friction modifier as best as I can tell like LubeGard. It did exactly what it claimed on creating softer shifts so snake oil or does what it claims?
E-CVT = NO TORQUE CONVERTER (these are on Toyota hybrids and a few others)
Honda C-RV hybrid is a different beast than the Toyota design. Still no torque converter, but it does have the ability to engage a clutch to directly Drive the output wheels from the motor but that is only used at highway speeds.
I could not link the video with my phone, go to youtube and watch the video " Understanding the Honda Hybrid E-Drive "
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That is not the correct additive for Honda's ECVT. In fact, that transmission is not a transmission at all in the way we think of them and it is not at all like the Prius transmission. It is a series of motors and a clutch.
Does the fluid even have a service interval?
All in all, it's got sections with shafts that rotate and even a shaft inside of a shaft so those need lubrication, and then it's got several gears and a lot of teeth so that means that the lubricating fluid is going to get sheared by the stress that it is put in between those teeth. The electric motor and electric generator are going to generate a lot of heat even though they're very efficient because there's a lot of power going on, so one of the requirements is going to be that the fluid helps carry away Heat. All in all it looks like an environment that's demanding of the fluid and that the fluid is going to end up getting degraded because of the sharing effect when it is squeezed between the different teeth. So yes I would think that that fluid has to be changed sometimes, because it is going to wear out ( shear ).
D
Deleted member 89374
I assume they installed it without your consent, right?
You transmission calls for Honda HCF-2.
If you don't want to pay the high price of OEM fluid, then I recommend you use Castrol ATF/CVT Universal fluid.
Here is the PDS for it: https://nudl.es/IHxgt
Another good option is Valvoline. Here is the PDS for Valvoline CVT Fluid: https://nudl.es/KhCTS
AMSOIL has one: https://nudl.es/ItqXR
Red Line Oil has one: https://nudl.es/PmUtU
The choice is yours, depending on how much you want to spend. If it was mine, I'd go with either Valvoline or AMSOIL on this one.
You can show your dealer the following page from your Owner's Manual:
You might not get the answers you're looking for by calling the service department. If I'm not mistaken, BG products aren't sold to the public so if the parts person thinks quick enough, they're going to tell you "no, we don't have that" (maybe a little white lie).
The service department is going to dance around this and tell you "oh, sorry, we just put the wrong additive on the work order" and what do you do ? Trust them ? Not believe them ? I'd demand (3) drain and refills with Honda CVT fluid and NO additives and remind them this is Honda's recommendation as well.
Nope, the 2020 Hybrid manual calls out DW-1.
Your tr
Your transmission had other issues.....what type of vehicle, how many miles?
Owen Lucas
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It is Maintenance Minder code # 3.
That is correct, unfortunately.
I logged into Honda's maintenance portal, where it allows you to look up the manual for your vehicle and it did confirm DW-1 as @JustN89 stated. Helpful to know about the other fluid manufacturers for the regular CRV in our fleet, which I will be SUPER CAREFULL about when having the dealer service that one, or maybe I'll attempt at servicing myself.
I am contemplating doing the service on the hybrid DIY at home, no tutorials online or YT, maybe I'll make one.
D
Deleted member 89374
If that's the case I would use Mobil 1 LV ATF HP. It's blended with a multi-vehicle additive package from Infineum that covers every step shift automatic under the sun, and it's also used in TES-668 fluids. Oh, a TES-668 would also work.
Also, AMSOIL ATL, Red Line D6, HPL ATF Green, Valvoline Max Life, Castrol Transmax Multi Vehicle ATF, and probably some others. My top choice is something blended with that awesome Infineum additive package I mentioned above, like HPL ATF Green, Mobil 1 LV ATF HP, or any TES-668 fluid.
D
Deleted member 89374
You have a ton of fluids to choose from for DW-1. I used Mobil 1 LV ATF HP in a 6-speed Hyundai transmission in our 2017 Santa Fe and in a ZF 8HP70 in our 2016 RAM 1500. I did a complete ATF replacement in each. I used AMSOIL and Red Line D6 in these transmissions, and wasn't happy with the firm shift quality. Of course, you got a ton of options.
That is really odd. It is a CVT but Honda says to use DW-1 while Honda has their own CVT fluid for their "other" CVT units.
Amsoil and Castrol (didn't check anyone else) both say to use one of their standard ATF variants too, not a CVT-type fluid.
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Owen Lucas
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Update:
Called BG 800 #, receptionist gave me a number to a local distributor. Could not connect me to an engineer as they are not on site. Asked if local distributors are engineers, she said no.
Called the distributor which forwarded me to a "tech guy". He said that the ATC additive would be indeed the correct one to use in the iMMD "eCVT" electromagnetic clutch transmission in the 2020 hybrid using the DW-1 fluid. The additive is am acid buildup reducer and acts as a base. This is to increase longevity of the product.
He said DW-1 is an Ultra Low Viscosity (ULV) fluid and the additive is compatible with DW-1. He said that BG tests their fluids for all OE application and confirmed the 2020 hybrid CRV is in their application chart for the ATC additive which he looked up while we were on the phone. We reviewed the mechanics of these transmissions and he stated that Ford has been using this type of trans since 2014 and he services all of the Honda dealers in the area for years with no issues.
I asked about the flash point (288*F) being 50* off the OE fluid FP of 338*F and my concern about a hot transmission boiling the additive causing off gassing and deterioration of the product which could gum up / sludge the trans. He didn't have a technical answer for this other than "I can reassure you that won't happen". From my basic googling and minimal knowledge of transmissions, it appears a trans won't reach 288*, maybe someone can correct me?
So basically, I'm still not sure, this guy could be blowing smoke but I feel that changing the fluid my self would be wise here for extra security. Maybe the additive isn't so bad and didn't cause harm immediately but I just don't want it in there long term. My local Honda parts dept said they wouldn't use this additive in the hybrid FWIW.
Only 2.5 quarts, a crush washer, and an extra long funnel.
Called BG 800 #, receptionist gave me a number to a local distributor. Could not connect me to an engineer as they are not on site. Asked if local distributors are engineers, she said no.
Called the distributor which forwarded me to a "tech guy". He said that the ATC additive would be indeed the correct one to use in the iMMD "eCVT" electromagnetic clutch transmission in the 2020 hybrid using the DW-1 fluid. The additive is am acid buildup reducer and acts as a base. This is to increase longevity of the product.
He said DW-1 is an Ultra Low Viscosity (ULV) fluid and the additive is compatible with DW-1. He said that BG tests their fluids for all OE application and confirmed the 2020 hybrid CRV is in their application chart for the ATC additive which he looked up while we were on the phone. We reviewed the mechanics of these transmissions and he stated that Ford has been using this type of trans since 2014 and he services all of the Honda dealers in the area for years with no issues.
I asked about the flash point (288*F) being 50* off the OE fluid FP of 338*F and my concern about a hot transmission boiling the additive causing off gassing and deterioration of the product which could gum up / sludge the trans. He didn't have a technical answer for this other than "I can reassure you that won't happen". From my basic googling and minimal knowledge of transmissions, it appears a trans won't reach 288*, maybe someone can correct me?
So basically, I'm still not sure, this guy could be blowing smoke but I feel that changing the fluid my self would be wise here for extra security. Maybe the additive isn't so bad and didn't cause harm immediately but I just don't want it in there long term. My local Honda parts dept said they wouldn't use this additive in the hybrid FWIW.
Only 2.5 quarts, a crush washer, and an extra long funnel.
Only transmission fluid temperature I've checked was in my wife's Fusion with the popular 6F35 transmission and it never went above 195º F.
This is a different dealer than the one that did the work ? No offense to the parts people - and I'm not defending BG stuff - they just gave you their opinion. They aren't likely to be mechanics or have hands-on experience or knowledge about this.
Owen Lucas
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100% agree. I have been able to get in touch with engineers at many different additive companies including Liqui Moly in Germany and they have all been helpful. Not BG.
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DW-1 is not CVT fluid so it makes sense it would use regular ATF fluid/additives for the trans.
If you actually want it "out" or mostly out you would need to at least a 3x drain and fill with a bit of mileage between each one. On the Sequoia it was better after first flush (14 qts), almost normal after 2nd flush (14 qts) and all good after the 3 flush, so 42qts total. They used the BG flush machine that hooked up to transmission cooler return line.
The normal drain and fill on Sequoia was about 4-5 qts.
Dealer should at least be willing to do a 3x D&F for you to get most of it out. Think total capacity of your transmission. 3 qts is only about 1/3rd of it.
Technically, all of that is correct. But I probably wouldn't have used it.