Dead malls

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted by grampi
Now days the popular thing seems to be building these shopping areas that are designed like small cities. I never could understand why people would rather walk around outside in the weather while going from store to store instead of being in a controlled climate in a mall.


I agree with you 1000%. These "outside" malls are popping up all over. Down here, its 100 degrees outside and rains for 2 hours a day. I would obviously prefer to be inside an air conditioned building not getting rained on. I think the developers are getting away from these large indoor malls, for profitability reasons. It has to cost a fortune to heat or cool these large buildings year round. Outside mall, doesnt have that.

 

[Rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Walmart and Costco are just as much to blame for the death of malls/strip malls. And from the revenue these companies are pulling in I'd say consumers are fine with


They are but not for the reasons you think.

These companies negotiate the lowest possible property taxes along with lobbying for subsidies to build. Their location is almost always wherever it's cheap. If their location gets more expensive they normally relocate leaving a falling down building.

Indoor malls get none of those advantages, it's simple economics, retail migrated to whatever is cheapest, indoor malls are extremely expensive to operate so they go away.

If there is a desire to have indoor malls you need to change the tax code.

See my post.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Walmart and Costco are just as much to blame for the death of malls/strip malls. And from the revenue these companies are pulling in I'd say consumers are fine with


They are but not for the reasons you think.

These companies negotiate the lowest possible property taxes along with lobbying for subsidies to build. Their location is almost always wherever it's cheap. If their location gets more expensive they normally relocate leaving a falling down building.

Indoor malls get none of those advantages, it's simple economics, retail migrated to whatever is cheapest, indoor malls are extremely expensive to operate so they go away.

If there is a desire to have indoor malls you need to change the tax code.

See my post.

Then it sounds like the mall owners need to hire better lobbyists and/or tax strategists......Mall operators should focus their energy on getting better and not bitter if they want to be around 10, 15 or 20yrs from now. I personally don't begrudge WM or Costco for seeking the best land deals and tax advantages possible to ensure a profitable and sustainable operation.. heck, I've got them in my investment portfolio..i want them to rake in the profits. And do you know how many people these stores employ and pump into the local economy? Just be glad Amazon hasn't gobbled them up too.

Plus, consumer habits have changed. Just like I said brick and mortar stores hated the golden age of catalog's, now you have mall owners crying about online retailers and mega stores. This is Darwinism for retailers... evolve or get left behind... it's as simple as that.

 

[Wolf359]

I think you guys missed a big point. The number of malls and retail stores increased greatly. The number of people also increased but not as much as the retail stores. There's only so much spending to go around. People go to the new ones. As others said, the outside malls are cheaper to build and more profitable.

 

[PimTac]

The malls did it to themselves as well. Most malls have a bunch of duplicate stores. How many jeans stores or clothing stores targeted to a niche consumer base are needed? Walk by any of these stores and the only people in them are the employees trying to look busy.

A tiny fraction of stores in a mall usually account for the majority of traffic.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by PimTac
The malls did it to themselves as well. Most malls have a bunch of duplicate stores. How many jeans stores or clothing stores targeted to a niche consumer base are needed? Walk by any of these stores and the only people in them are the employees trying to look busy.

A tiny fraction of stores in a mall usually account for the majority of traffic.

My 13yr old daughter likes meandering around all the useless shops at the mall with her "besties"...me, not so much. Unless it's the holidays the parking lots are usually half empty except for maybe by a big anchor store, even on the weekends when you'd think they'd be "busy". People just aren't going to them as much these days...

 

[Mr Nice]

Here in Florida lots of old retired folks go to the mall to walk around for an hour or two for exercise.

Especially in the mornings you see a bunch of them walking and having a coffee at Chick Fil A.

 

[Rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
I think you guys missed a big point. The number of malls and retail stores increased greatly. The number of people also increased but not as much as the retail stores. There's only so much spending to go around. People go to the new ones. As others said, the outside malls are cheaper to build and more profitable.


This point isn't lost, but outdoor malls aren't actually cheaper in real dollars to build or operate, in northern climates the heating bills are higher,
Again there is also tax and subsidy advantages to them because of property tax being charged only on "interior space" and at an elevated rate in the case of interior malls.

Most areas favor external entrances via taxes and in my area new retail construction is almost always subsidized.

So excess new construction is encouraged when we should be encouraging the opposite.

The multitude of strip malls that have gone up in the last 20 years all have the same problem as an interior mall in that it's just rows of clothing stores and other nearly identical places but in a strip mall instead.

Why certain new strip malls flourish and others lay vacant and get torn down I can't explain

But it's a classic case of choosing winners and losers, if these places had to fend on their own without manipulation on a level field
I have to imagine things would return to how things were years ago where new retail was extraordinarily rare (why take a risk with your own money) and bankruptcies with tear down would be less common since existing retail buildings would have more value.

From what I've been told retail store building are generally considered valueless after 10-20 years, this attitude coupled with cheap subsidized new structures gives us what we have today.

 

[atikovi]

https://www.westfield.com/montgomer...uksYASFDONxpzOC1mhihu-0NngIaAk9bEALw_wcB

Westfield Montgomery mall built in 1968 in a high income area. Large expansion completed a few years ago including an Arclight cinema and expanded food court. Place is pretty packed whenever I drive by or go inside, especially Friday nights.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

A few months ago I stayed at a hotel that was by a recently demo'd abandon mall. Schuylkill Mall in Frackville.

 

[Rmay635703]

Originally Posted by atikovi
https://www.westfield.com/montgomer...uksYASFDONxpzOC1mhihu-0NngIaAk9bEALw_wcB

Westfield Montgomery mall built in 1968 in a high income area. Large expansion completed a few years ago including an Arclight cinema and expanded food court. Place is pretty packed whenever I drive by or go inside, especially Friday nights.


Exactly, just because many areas mismanage retail doesn't mean the idea behind an indoor mall is a bad one.

Years of bad decisions are killing them off in many areas, even though in many ways an indoor mall is nice especially in 40 below weather.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

I remember when the first mall opened in Albuquerque in 1961-Winrock Center, it was hard to stay away from the place. And the moss back downtown merchants who were the only game in town during WWII and the fifties found themselves without shoppers. The worm turns.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by john_pifer


In the mid 1990s, a new large mall, Wolfchase, opened along the Germantown Parkway corridor, on the northeast side. It was OK for a while, and is still actually pretty busy, but it's also become somewhere you really don't want to be on a Friday or Saturday night, due to large groups of unsupervised teenagers roaming the place. There have also been at least two incidences of smash and grabs by big groups of thugs at jewelry stores there.
The trend over the last few years has been towards "outdoor malls" - basically big, outdoor shopping centers with fountains and park benches and walkways, movie theaters, restaurants, etc, like the Carriage Crossing outdoor mall in Collierville, and Indian Lakes in Hendersonville, near where I live now. These outdoor malls attract less rowdiness by teenagers due to the fact that they don't offer an indoor shelter from rain, snow, cold or heat, or an indoor environment for idle teens to hang out and make trouble.


This is a factor I hadn't thought of that is real.
In this area, we've seen one large older mall west of Dayton along with a lot of outlying retail fade to nothing as a result of teen hangout activity while another mall south of the city is headed in the same direction.
Outdoor malls don't offer the same hangout potential and that may explain why we're seeing them even here where being outdoors is unattractive for most of the year. It's either too hot, too cold or it's raining.
No hangout potential in an outdoor mall.

 

[Pew]

I love amazon. I don't have to go to a store hoping they have what I need. Plus around here there's Amazon Go which is amazing for us big city workers that like a variety of food to just grab and go.