4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Those centralizers run fairly tight … so I just feed the cutter really light on FU’s … they are not as thick as M1 or XP to start with
[Cut Open] Fram XG4967 - 10,452 mi
- Thread starter DuckRyder
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I may look for the cut open 3614 I had in the garage and measure the diameters. Talk is great but pics and numbers better. Beaten down fiber nubs don't center so great. End cap gap is as big a topic to oil flow as inlet hole size or louvers. Never have seen anyone actually calculate it. One guy claims small gap destroyed his engine or something like that. Lot of things could be measured and posted as actual information, instead of arguing about it.
Arguing? ... it's called a technical discussion. Metal nubs don't wear down on metal end caps. Fiber nubs don't totally "wear down", they might deform slightly with mileage on the filter, but it still doesn't change the flow area between the can and end cap.
That's right, arguing, I can use words I choose.
Why don't you go measure something and leave me alone.
Why don't you since you're always bringing up these "theories" without something to back it up? That's how a technical discussion works.
I think a few people on this board have done the measurement and found the "end cap to can gap" to be adequate even though it looks small. Doubt these filter design engineers have over looked this part of the design.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I may look for the cut open 3614 I had in the garage and measure the diameters. Talk is great but pics and numbers better. Beaten down fiber nubs don't center so great. End cap gap is as big a topic to oil flow as inlet hole size or louvers. Never have seen anyone actually calculate it. One guy claims small gap destroyed his engine or something like that. Lot of things could be measured and posted as actual information, instead of arguing about it.
Arguing? ... it's called a technical discussion. Metal nubs don't wear down on metal end caps. Fiber nubs don't totally "wear down", they might deform slightly with mileage on the filter, but it still doesn't change the flow area between the can and end cap.
That's right, arguing, I can use words I choose.
Why don't you since you're always bringing up these "theories" without something to back it up? That's how a technical discussion works.
I think a few people on this board have done the measurement and found the "end cap to can gap" to be adequate even though it looks small. Doubt these filter design engineers have over looked this part of the design.
^^^ To add, if the gap between the end cap and can was too narrow, the delta-p across the filter would be increased accordingly. Data has been posted on this board of a few various filter's flow vs delta-p. None seem excessive, typically around 5 PSI at 10 GPM with hot oil. That's the delta-p across the whole filter assembly.
It's possible if a filter shows higher than normal flow vs delta-p that an undersized can gap is part of the pressure drop - but most likely due to restrictive media. It would be hard to distinguish without further testing of the filter with the media removed. Something that could be done by designers as part of the design qualification process would be to build a filter without media to measure the delta-p of the mechanical hardware, then compare that flow vs delta-p data against a filter assembly with media.
It's possible if a filter shows higher than normal flow vs delta-p that an undersized can gap is part of the pressure drop - but most likely due to restrictive media. It would be hard to distinguish without further testing of the filter with the media removed. Something that could be done by designers as part of the design qualification process would be to build a filter without media to measure the delta-p of the mechanical hardware, then compare that flow vs delta-p data against a filter assembly with media.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely.
Try not tightening it so much.
Most folks over-tighten their filters - - You’d be really surprised to see how loose they can get and still not leak.
I don’t over tighten filters. Particularly this one because the fact you can’t exert any real force on it works both ways... I never tighten filters over the factory spec.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
Agree ~ when you don’t have a wide open space that coating can work against you. Worse for me is the Fusion Hybrid ~ in fact I just bought it the K&N for the 1” nut feature
I ran a TRD filter on this one that had the nut and it did work. A cap wrench makes quick work of an OE filter. I do think I remember some discussion about a cap wrench that would work on these, guess I need to go looking before next time.
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: mcwilly
...
Does that XG8A have the same size gasket? That would be a lifetime filter on the echo!
No, from the Fram site:
XG4967- 2.118/2.438
XG8- 2.422/2.797
The inner diameter of the XG8 is right at the outer diameter of the XG4967.
It is possible they could interchange, depending on the size of the mount on the vehicle (and enough space for the filter). Bypass is close (12 PSI on the XG8, 14 PSI on the XG4967).
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
...
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
That was one of my concerns with the Sureggrip (fitting my filter endcap wrench) and it works just fine with mine (PH2 size, a 93/15 fits fine).
___________________________
1994 Honda VT1100: Peak 15w-40, Fram TG Filter, 3k OCI
2002 Ford F150: Havoline HM 5w-20, Ecogard Filter, 5k OCI
2012 Scion xB: QSUD 0w-20 syn, CQ Blue (Wix) Filter, 5k OCI
I’ll have to look into if there is one that will work, the one I have that fits standard filter will not work and all of the others were too large.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Every Fram I have seen has very sharp inlet holes, usually with small burs. Just don't understand the rose colored glasses. It's a product made by a company, what it is, it is. They have different geometry that avoids cutting the adbv, although some have impressions of the holes in them. The 4967 has a wide land for the adbv to seal on, others models don’t, like the 3614. IMHO
Are they sharp, I guess you could say that, but they are orders of magnitude less sharp than I have seen on vendor M+H (P). Yes they sometimes leave impressions on the ADBV on other models, but if you look at the tapping plate closely on those models you will see evidence of deburring at the area of contact on Fram.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
The other thing easily seen here are the nubs on the end cap. All the oil flow has to go in that narrow gap the nubs provide. I would say that is more restrictive looking than inlet holes, just by eye. But it's surely calculated by the company, like the inlet holes. No one talks about the small gap for oil flow though on these filters.
I just don’t see that as a valid concern, sorry...
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
UOA is back:
Mobil1 5W-30 EP, 4999mi, 2007 Prius Touring, 89816
Looks really good. I bought the same year prius new and daughter now has it. I have been using the 4386 size, easier to reach. Since new , it has about 73K now she drives a lot, it has never had anyone else change the oil except me. I don't jack it up, have managed to do every change on flat ground laying on a piece of cardboard. I have a TG 4386 on it now. I do have one of these xg4367 left, maybe I’ll put it on.
You should give the XG a whirl. I can change the oil on this one without raising it off the ground with a regular filter and a longer filter would make it easier...
I just drive it up on ramps though - NBD there.
This thing has had a surprising number of recalls on it though...
I guess I have to say it is a decent car, but it certainly lacks any real qualities to endear it to a “car guy”.
Anyway.
I do have some more filter pictures I will try to put up.
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely.
Try not tightening it so much.
Most folks over-tighten their filters - - You’d be really surprised to see how loose they can get and still not leak.
I don’t over tighten filters. Particularly this one because the fact you can’t exert any real force on it works both ways... I never tighten filters over the factory spec.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
Agree ~ when you don’t have a wide open space that coating can work against you. Worse for me is the Fusion Hybrid ~ in fact I just bought it the K&N for the 1” nut feature
I ran a TRD filter on this one that had the nut and it did work. A cap wrench makes quick work of an OE filter. I do think I remember some discussion about a cap wrench that would work on these, guess I need to go looking before next time.
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: mcwilly
...
Does that XG8A have the same size gasket? That would be a lifetime filter on the echo!
No, from the Fram site:
XG4967- 2.118/2.438
XG8- 2.422/2.797
The inner diameter of the XG8 is right at the outer diameter of the XG4967.
It is possible they could interchange, depending on the size of the mount on the vehicle (and enough space for the filter). Bypass is close (12 PSI on the XG8, 14 PSI on the XG4967).
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
...
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
That was one of my concerns with the Sureggrip (fitting my filter endcap wrench) and it works just fine with mine (PH2 size, a 93/15 fits fine).
___________________________
1994 Honda VT1100: Peak 15w-40, Fram TG Filter, 3k OCI
2002 Ford F150: Havoline HM 5w-20, Ecogard Filter, 5k OCI
2012 Scion xB: QSUD 0w-20 syn, CQ Blue (Wix) Filter, 5k OCI
I’ll have to look into if there is one that will work, the one I have that fits standard filter will not work and all of the others were too large.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Every Fram I have seen has very sharp inlet holes, usually with small burs. Just don't understand the rose colored glasses. It's a product made by a company, what it is, it is. They have different geometry that avoids cutting the adbv, although some have impressions of the holes in them. The 4967 has a wide land for the adbv to seal on, others models don’t, like the 3614. IMHO
Are they sharp, I guess you could say that, but they are orders of magnitude less sharp than I have seen on vendor M+H (P). Yes they sometimes leave impressions on the ADBV on other models, but if you look at the tapping plate closely on those models you will see evidence of deburring at the area of contact on Fram.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
The other thing easily seen here are the nubs on the end cap. All the oil flow has to go in that narrow gap the nubs provide. I would say that is more restrictive looking than inlet holes, just by eye. But it's surely calculated by the company, like the inlet holes. No one talks about the small gap for oil flow though on these filters.
I just don’t see that as a valid concern, sorry...
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
UOA is back:
Mobil1 5W-30 EP, 4999mi, 2007 Prius Touring, 89816
Looks really good. I bought the same year prius new and daughter now has it. I have been using the 4386 size, easier to reach. Since new , it has about 73K now she drives a lot, it has never had anyone else change the oil except me. I don't jack it up, have managed to do every change on flat ground laying on a piece of cardboard. I have a TG 4386 on it now. I do have one of these xg4367 left, maybe I’ll put it on.
You should give the XG a whirl. I can change the oil on this one without raising it off the ground with a regular filter and a longer filter would make it easier...
I just drive it up on ramps though - NBD there.
This thing has had a surprising number of recalls on it though...
I guess I have to say it is a decent car, but it certainly lacks any real qualities to endear it to a “car guy”.
Anyway.
I do have some more filter pictures I will try to put up.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Has a Fram Pro cut open been posted here?
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely.
Try not tightening it so much.
Most folks over-tighten their filters - - You’d be really surprised to see how loose they can get and still not leak.
I don’t over tighten filters. Particularly this one because the fact you can’t exert any real force on it works both ways... I never tighten filters over the factory spec.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
Agree ~ when you don’t have a wide open space that coating can work against you. Worse for me is the Fusion Hybrid ~ in fact I just bought it the K&N for the 1” nut feature
I ran a TRD filter on this one that had the nut and it did work. A cap wrench makes quick work of an OE filter. I do think I remember some discussion about a cap wrench that would work on these, guess I need to go looking before next time.
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: mcwilly
...
Does that XG8A have the same size gasket? That would be a lifetime filter on the echo!
No, from the Fram site:
XG4967- 2.118/2.438
XG8- 2.422/2.797
The inner diameter of the XG8 is right at the outer diameter of the XG4967.
It is possible they could interchange, depending on the size of the mount on the vehicle (and enough space for the filter). Bypass is close (12 PSI on the XG8, 14 PSI on the XG4967).
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
...
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
That was one of my concerns with the Sureggrip (fitting my filter endcap wrench) and it works just fine with mine (PH2 size, a 93/15 fits fine).
___________________________
1994 Honda VT1100: Peak 15w-40, Fram TG Filter, 3k OCI
2002 Ford F150: Havoline HM 5w-20, Ecogard Filter, 5k OCI
2012 Scion xB: QSUD 0w-20 syn, CQ Blue (Wix) Filter, 5k OCI
I’ll have to look into if there is one that will work, the one I have that fits standard filter will not work and all of the others were too large.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Every Fram I have seen has very sharp inlet holes, usually with small burs. Just don't understand the rose colored glasses. It's a product made by a company, what it is, it is. They have different geometry that avoids cutting the adbv, although some have impressions of the holes in them. The 4967 has a wide land for the adbv to seal on, others models don’t, like the 3614. IMHO
Are they sharp, I guess you could say that, but they are orders of magnitude less sharp than I have seen on vendor M+H (P). Yes they sometimes leave impressions on the ADBV on other models, but if you look at the tapping plate closely on those models you will see evidence of deburring at the area of contact on Fram.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
The other thing easily seen here are the nubs on the end cap. All the oil flow has to go in that narrow gap the nubs provide. I would say that is more restrictive looking than inlet holes, just by eye. But it's surely calculated by the company, like the inlet holes. No one talks about the small gap for oil flow though on these filters.
I just don’t see that as a valid concern, sorry...
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
UOA is back:
Mobil1 5W-30 EP, 4999mi, 2007 Prius Touring, 89816
Looks really good. I bought the same year prius new and daughter now has it. I have been using the 4386 size, easier to reach. Since new , it has about 73K now she drives a lot, it has never had anyone else change the oil except me. I don't jack it up, have managed to do every change on flat ground laying on a piece of cardboard. I have a TG 4386 on it now. I do have one of these xg4367 left, maybe I’ll put it on.
You should give the XG a whirl. I can change the oil on this one without raising it off the ground with a regular filter and a longer filter would make it easier...
I just drive it up on ramps though - NBD there.
This thing has had a surprising number of recalls on it though...
I guess I have to say it is a decent car, but it certainly lacks any real qualities to endear it to a “car guy”.
Anyway.
I do have some more filter pictures I will try to put up.
I have so many filters lined up for the Prius. An XG4967 is on the waiting line. It's from 2012 so it's time. I used mainly the Japanese Toyota filters, and Thai Toyota filters with a mix of others. Never could tell the difference as to the running. One thing I notice is the oil can be just warm even after a long drive. That's why I stick to the 5k. My daughter says she likes nothing about the Prius except it is a car rather than no car. I liked it. The only recall was the pedals and inverter pump on mine.
Now I have a 2014 Volt, and finally am getting to like it.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely.
Try not tightening it so much.
Most folks over-tighten their filters - - You’d be really surprised to see how loose they can get and still not leak.
I don’t over tighten filters. Particularly this one because the fact you can’t exert any real force on it works both ways... I never tighten filters over the factory spec.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
Agree ~ when you don’t have a wide open space that coating can work against you. Worse for me is the Fusion Hybrid ~ in fact I just bought it the K&N for the 1” nut feature
I ran a TRD filter on this one that had the nut and it did work. A cap wrench makes quick work of an OE filter. I do think I remember some discussion about a cap wrench that would work on these, guess I need to go looking before next time.
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: mcwilly
...
Does that XG8A have the same size gasket? That would be a lifetime filter on the echo!
No, from the Fram site:
XG4967- 2.118/2.438
XG8- 2.422/2.797
The inner diameter of the XG8 is right at the outer diameter of the XG4967.
It is possible they could interchange, depending on the size of the mount on the vehicle (and enough space for the filter). Bypass is close (12 PSI on the XG8, 14 PSI on the XG4967).
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
...
Changing this filter reminds me why I detest the “SureGrip”. This filter is sort of up in a hole you can get your hand on it pretty easily, but exerting any actual force is another story entirely. It would be very very easy to change if you could get the cap wrench on it, but you can’t because of the SureGrip. It is pretty tight to get any sort of strap or plier type oil filter wrench up there (again getting it to grab the filter is one thing, actually turning it is quite another) which is why the filter is a bit mangled. I wish FPS were easier to get.
FRAM seems pretty fully committed to the SureGrip, but I wish they would stop. Clearly with the “PRO series” they have realized it may not be desirable and I would think that an ever increasing number of vehicles have access issues.
That was one of my concerns with the Sureggrip (fitting my filter endcap wrench) and it works just fine with mine (PH2 size, a 93/15 fits fine).
___________________________
1994 Honda VT1100: Peak 15w-40, Fram TG Filter, 3k OCI
2002 Ford F150: Havoline HM 5w-20, Ecogard Filter, 5k OCI
2012 Scion xB: QSUD 0w-20 syn, CQ Blue (Wix) Filter, 5k OCI
I’ll have to look into if there is one that will work, the one I have that fits standard filter will not work and all of the others were too large.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Every Fram I have seen has very sharp inlet holes, usually with small burs. Just don't understand the rose colored glasses. It's a product made by a company, what it is, it is. They have different geometry that avoids cutting the adbv, although some have impressions of the holes in them. The 4967 has a wide land for the adbv to seal on, others models don’t, like the 3614. IMHO
Are they sharp, I guess you could say that, but they are orders of magnitude less sharp than I have seen on vendor M+H (P). Yes they sometimes leave impressions on the ADBV on other models, but if you look at the tapping plate closely on those models you will see evidence of deburring at the area of contact on Fram.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
The other thing easily seen here are the nubs on the end cap. All the oil flow has to go in that narrow gap the nubs provide. I would say that is more restrictive looking than inlet holes, just by eye. But it's surely calculated by the company, like the inlet holes. No one talks about the small gap for oil flow though on these filters.
I just don’t see that as a valid concern, sorry...
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
UOA is back:
Mobil1 5W-30 EP, 4999mi, 2007 Prius Touring, 89816
Looks really good. I bought the same year prius new and daughter now has it. I have been using the 4386 size, easier to reach. Since new , it has about 73K now she drives a lot, it has never had anyone else change the oil except me. I don't jack it up, have managed to do every change on flat ground laying on a piece of cardboard. I have a TG 4386 on it now. I do have one of these xg4367 left, maybe I’ll put it on.
You should give the XG a whirl. I can change the oil on this one without raising it off the ground with a regular filter and a longer filter would make it easier...
I just drive it up on ramps though - NBD there.
This thing has had a surprising number of recalls on it though...
I guess I have to say it is a decent car, but it certainly lacks any real qualities to endear it to a “car guy”.
Anyway.
I do have some more filter pictures I will try to put up.
I have so many filters lined up for the Prius. An XG4967 is on the waiting line. It's from 2012 so it's time. I used mainly the Japanese Toyota filters, and Thai Toyota filters with a mix of others. Never could tell the difference as to the running. One thing I notice is the oil can be just warm even after a long drive. That's why I stick to the 5k. My daughter says she likes nothing about the Prius except it is a car rather than no car. I liked it. The only recall was the pedals and inverter pump on mine.
Now I have a 2014 Volt, and finally am getting to like it.
Media dried out.
I see I said I took some more pictures, will have to take a look at that...
Fantastic looking little filter there!
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