[Cut Open] Bosch D+ and PureONE

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Well, I don't know if 13 grams of dirt is a lot or not. The D+ holds over twice that as does the Fram Xtended Guard. Fram notes that the normal basic oil filter holds about 12 grams of dirt. Based on that information, the PureONE holds no more than the OCOD.


Weigh out 13 grams of iron filings or some similar substance. You'll see it's a fair bit. Sure, the D+ and the XG hold twice as much. Some of the European fleece elements might hold much more, with their 20,000 mile plus OCIs.

For normal use, or even somewhat extended OCIs, are we seeing "normal" filters plugged up with dirt? I wager that Bosch, with respect to its Distance Plus, is banking more on people simply wanting "more" or "better" than they are on longer OCIs with modern vehicles.

I suggest we don't have a problem with dirt holding capacity in just about any name brand or OEM filter. None of the filter manufacturers want a filter to plug up over a normal OCI, and are well aware that people will neglect oil changes and that some applications suggest an oil filter every second oil change.

Of course, one's mileage may vary, as it were. The G37 has a tiny little filter. I'm quite confident in it, but it certainly doesn't have as much dirt holding capacity or as much media as an FL1A.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Wasn't there a problem with some Amsoil EaO filter users in certain apps running the filters too long and the oil light coming on due to it going into by-pass? OR Amsoil at least sent out a warning, where some folks just tried to 'sit it and forget it', regarding the car and maintenance for their vehicle.

Therefore, if your are extending out your oil change interval 'beyond' what was spec'd for that time(7,500 under 'normal' conditions for instance), and you don't know how clean OR not clean the inside of that particular app's engine is...don't take a chance by just blindly extending the OCI beyond 7,500(for example) and blindly hope even a mid-tier oil filter will be enough.

Which is where UOAs and tracking insols/particle counts are important.

 

[OldCowboy]

Hi Garak,

I'm not trying to be a troublemaker, but I suggest that we don't know how much "junk" gets filtered out in a 5K OCI. People cut open used filters and other people ooh and ahh about how good they look, but there is not a simple way to determine just how much stuff has been caught by the filter.

However, I did ask PureONE about extended OCIs with their filter and was informed that PureONE filters shouldn't be used for more than 4-5K miles. Since this came directly from PureONE technical support, I give it a lot more credence than a bunch of folks opining about the capabilities of PureONE filters without any way to measure their capacity.

 

[ltslimjim]

^On a clean engine, I'd feel like changing a PureONE(not the smallest sizes mind you) by 7,500 miles. No more. I feel that's safe with some head room to spare. On a dirty engine or one I just didn't know about, no more than 5,000 miles. Very dirty app/engine environment? No more than 3,000; if I'm even performing OCIs of that long at the time.

PS: Doesn't it take about 29 or 30 grams = 1 ounce? Ever had a pet Parakeet/Budgie sit on your hand? Yeah, it's quite light in weight. Not sure if that means anything?

 

[HTSS_TR]

1 ounce = 28.35 grams

If an engine shreds 10 grams of metal in 10k miles, it will not lasted long.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
I'm not trying to be a troublemaker, but I suggest that we don't know how much "junk" gets filtered out in a 5K OCI. People cut open used filters and other people ooh and ahh about how good they look, but there is not a simple way to determine just how much stuff has been caught by the filter.


I don't think you're trying to be a troublemaker at all. You're making a valid point, in fact, the same one I'm making, just from the other end.

No, we don't know how much junk is getting filtered out, and it's not realistically within the capabilities of the DIYer to find out, either. As for what Purolator states, I think customer service is being very conservative, since the website doesn't warn against using the P1 for relatively common 7,500 mile manufacturer recommended OCIs. I would also suspect that Purolator would provide a warning against using their filters over two OCIs (where allowed by the vehicle manufacturer). They do not.

However, interestingly enough, I've seen on either the Bosch or the Purolator website (I believe it was the former) that the Bosch filters are aimed more at the European cars. For certain vehicles with really long OCIs, the recommended option is the long life fleece filter (I've usually seen them as Bosch, Mann, Mahle, and Hengst), rather than the standard paper filter. I've even finally seen that on our local Partsource stores shelves, with respect to the Mann filters.

My point is that I don't think most of us have much to worry about, unless we dramatically extend our OCIs. The average person doesn't need a Distance Plus for a 3,000 mile OCI, nor should a person who drives a car with a 7,500 mile OCI be frightened away from a Bosch Premium or a P1.

As for credence about dirt holding capacity, how concrete are these published specification, even for a Distance Plus? I suspect that x number of grams applies to a certain filter. I'd find it hard to believe that my little Dixie cup G filter in a Distance Plus would have as much capacity as the FL1A equivalent.

Besides, everything is a tradeoff. All things being equal, finer filtration means an earlier potential for clogging, and more flow means coarser filtration.

 

[OldCowboy]

I think we have reached a point of agreement.

 

[cp3]

What about the possibility that Purolator is just doing the same this as say, Valvoline and their 3k mile recommendation? I think it's fair to say that is a conservative recommendation for for the oil, maybe for the filter as well.

Now, I'm not disagreeing with you OC. I don't know how a DIYer could go about measuring how much is caught in a used filter either. Maybe filling a second filter with oil at the oil change, keeping it filled through out the OCI to saturate the media and then weighing both at the next OCI may come close....I don't know.

I do know that personally, I'm comfortable running most of the mid-level to premium filters available to me for an entire factory OCI. At least until some information comes up to change my mind.

 

[Drew2000]

....Or could it be that Purolator would much rather sell you two oil filters in 8000 miles than just one???

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
I think we have reached a point of agreement.


Quite right. For my fairly conservative OCIs, my Wix, Motorcraft, Bosch (American and German), and German Manns do the trick. If I were really to extend my OCIs, well, then I'd have to do some thinking.

After all, people do use bypass filters and the like for really extended OCIs. It's not totally out of being OCD, either. There obviously are purposes to such equipment.

Up here, cost is always an issue, too. I haven't seen a D+ anywhere, but if one gets into a K&N, M1, or Fram Synthetic oil filter, one is reaching into the $12 neighborhood. For my G37, going from my $10 Wix or $10.50 Motorcraft to a $12 M1 isn't a huge stretch. For the F-150, going from a $4.99 Wix to a $12 M1 is another story, though, unless I can make it pay with extended OCIs.

Availability is always a concern, too. I have yet to find a D+ here. Pureones are about impossible to find in this city. Even a Bosch Premium is hard to find.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Could you buy one from RockAuto shipped to Canada?

Amazon was interesting as well:

Amazon

RockAuto

 

[cp3]

For RockAuto to be cost effective for us you have to buy a lot. A years worth of Wix (5 oil, 2 air and a cabin) for my two cars saves me about $40 I think it was.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
^Could you buy one from RockAuto shipped to Canada?

Amazon was interesting as well:


RockAuto would work; the only issue is the shipping cost. The Manns sure are cheap there! I can get Bosch Premiums online in Canada for under $5. Amazon won't ship filters to Canada because of "warranty issues." I don't understand how that's Amazon's problem. If I buy a bad PureOne or D+ from Amazon, that's for me to address with Purolator, not Amazon. I'll only grouse at them if they send me the wrong filters. They are the only retailer I've ever come across who won't ship filters across the border. I guess they've never heard of NAFTA.

 

[ZeeOSix]

This is why some manufactures use the CYA statement of 3K or 3 months OCIs.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2377442/

 

[cchase]

Why couldn't one take a new filter, soak it in oil, then immediately weigh it, and compare the weight to a used filter immediately weighed upon opening to get an idea of the amount of material captured? Of course this would vary by owner/engine/habit but could give at least some insight as to the amount of material trapped by a filter over an OCI.

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: cchase
Why couldn't one take a new filter, soak it in oil, then immediately weigh it, and compare the weight to a used filter immediately weighed upon opening to get an idea of the amount of material captured? Of course this would vary by owner/engine/habit but could give at least some insight as to the amount of material trapped by a filter over an OCI.


This is what I was thinking other than letting it saturate a little longer. I'm sure it wouldn't pass any scientific test criteria but it should give you an idea.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
This is why some manufactures use the CYA statement of 3K or 3 months OCIs.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2377442/


Do you really believe that car had a history of 6K OCI's with the oil level kept full? I don't. Nor do I buy a 3-4K limit on any modern oil filter in a clean, correctly functioning engine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
This is why some manufactures use the CYA statement of 3K or 3 months OCIs.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2377442/


Do you really believe that car had a history of 6K OCI's with the oil level kept full? I don't. Nor do I buy a 3-4K limit on any modern oil filter in a clean, correctly functioning engine.


Can't saw how much of that thread is true or not ... but point was that filter manufacture's have the "3K miles or 3 month" OCI CYA mentality for car owners with sludged up engines such as the guy in the thread.

I agree 100% that with a clean engine an oil filter can go much longer ... most could probably go 10K miles with no problems.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: cchase
Why couldn't one take a new filter, soak it in oil, then immediately weigh it, and compare the weight to a used filter immediately weighed upon opening to get an idea of the amount of material captured? Of course this would vary by owner/engine/habit but could give at least some insight as to the amount of material trapped by a filter over an OCI.


This is what I was thinking other than letting it saturate a little longer. I'm sure it wouldn't pass any scientific test criteria but it should give you an idea.


I'm not sure if weighing the filter, even under that same conditions as close as possible, will give you any data worth relying on. The amount of debris could be in the few grams range, and any inconsistencies in the test method could cause +/- skew well within that range.

I think the closest you'd get is if you weighed the new vs. used filter with both of them base up and plumb full of oil to the same level. It would have to be on the same exact filter to negate any weight differences from possible differences in the manufacturing process (ie, like different amount of glue on the end caps, etc).

 

[JOD]

the weight idea isn't working for me, either. I think the best way to test a filter's capacity is to measure pressure differential on a used filter instead of trying to measure the contaminants. Obviously, you'll have to have some gauges installed or a test bench if you're really that curious.