Counterfeit products

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways
I'm outta here before a mod ends it for me. S'long.

Now I am curious. Why are you posting in such fear of the moderators? Guilt? Or is it that you are afraid they see, as I do, that what you are contributing is nothing but complete dramatic nonsense, that is of no value to this thread what so ever?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by billt460
Perhaps. But more importantly, I won't be overcharged for something. Atlas is free to sell their product at whatever price they choose. Just as I am free not to buy it. And I wouldn't regardless if a much cheaper repro was offered or not. You or Atlas can defend their price. It no longer matters because I as the consumer have already made the decision it's too much, and I'm not going to pay it. So based on that they've lost my sale. Where my money goes from that point is immaterial, because it's not going to Atlas.

It's no different than someone wanting to buy a tool chest, and rejecting a Snap On model because of it's ridiculous price. And instead drive over to Harbor Freight and purchase one of their U.S. General clones for 80% less. Same deal, made in China. Much like everything else they sell. But it satisfies the consumers needs who is buying it at a far cheaper cost. That matters.


And that's the fundamental difference. We are diametrically opposed on philosophy here. I've bought a precision-engineered CADEX rifle and paid for the privilege of doing so. If you think the Atlas is expensive, I'd suggest not checking out their offering. I have plenty of Snap-On tools, as I inherited quite a few from my grandfather and did enough wrenching on 5.0L Ford's that it warranted buying many of my own. The rest are Grey, old Craftsman, Armstrong...etc. My tool chest is half Snap-On half Craftsman.

I've never darkened the door of Harbour Freight or our Canadian sister to it, Princess Auto. Same reason I don't shop at the Dollar Store or Giant Tiger. I'm not a consumer of cheap Chinese trinkets and I won't support the ripping off of domestic R&D. That's my choice, which, as obvious as it is, clearly runs contrary to yours. I have no problem separating myself from my money to support strong domestic R&D and manufacturing.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
And that's the fundamental difference. We are diametrically opposed on philosophy here. I've bought a precision-engineered CADEX rifle and paid for the privilege of doing so. If you think the Atlas is expensive, I'd suggest not checking out their offering. I have plenty of Snap-On tools, as I inherited quite a few from my grandfather and did enough wrenching on 5.0L Ford's that it warranted buying many of my own. The rest are Grey, old Craftsman, Armstrong...etc. My tool chest is half Snap-On half Craftsman.

I am not opposed to expensive guns, tools, or even watches. But there are limits. I had zero problems parting with over $5K for my .50 BMG rifle. In spite of the fact of how little I shoot it compared to many of my other guns. But there is no one cloning repeating bolt action rifles in .50 BMG for 90% less costs than the name brands. Because it would be impossible regardless of who made it, or where. I'm sure you can say much the same about your Cadex.

That's not the case with a $330.00 Atlas Bi-Pod. Or a $5K Stainless Steel Rolex watch. Or a $750.00 Louis Vuitton handbag. Or a $4K Snap On tool cabinet. Because many of these items sell for the prices they do only because of their name. And are flat out overpriced because of it. And a lot of these cheaper clones are not cheaper because they are, "stealing I.P.", or are lacking quality. Let's be honest. How hard is it to make a tool cabinet, or a wrench? They are cheaper because the original is insanely overpriced.

That's where I draw the line. I paid $185.00 for a beautiful Seiko Stainless Steel Chronograph. It has excellent craftsmanship that reflects it's fair price. I'm not saying it's as "good" as a Rolex..... But it's not $5K either. And I believe someone would have a difficult time showing me, or anyone else $4,815.00 worth of difference.

And just to set the record straight, I wouldn't buy a Rolex clone. Not because I think the quality of the high grade clone, like the one shown in the video, is lacking. I simply have no interest in fooling people into thinking I paid more for something than I did. I'm not that desperate to impress. But if someone is, I suppose I can understand their choice in choosing the clone. Especially with women and designer hand bags and such.

Back to your Cadex. There is no way you can get around it's cost. Sure you could have bought a cheaper rifle. But with all things equal, you would be hard pressed to find more accuracy and long range performance for less money. It can't be cloned for less. Certainly not much less. But I purchased my Atlas clone because of it's value for it's price. Something I feel the genuine Atlas was lacking. At least for $330.00.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
And that's the fundamental difference. We are diametrically opposed on philosophy here. I've bought a precision-engineered CADEX rifle and paid for the privilege of doing so. If you think the Atlas is expensive, I'd suggest not checking out their offering. I have plenty of Snap-On tools, as I inherited quite a few from my grandfather and did enough wrenching on 5.0L Ford's that it warranted buying many of my own. The rest are Grey, old Craftsman, Armstrong...etc. My tool chest is half Snap-On half Craftsman.

I am not opposed to expensive guns, tools, or even watches. But there are limits. I had zero problems parting with over $5K for my .50 BMG rifle. In spite of the fact of how little I shoot it compared to many of my other guns. But there is no one cloning repeating bolt action rifles in .50 BMG for 90% less costs than the name brands. Because it would be impossible regardless of who made it, or where. I'm sure you can say much the same about your Cadex.

That's not the case with a $330.00 Atlas Bi-Pod. Or a $5K Stainless Steel Rolex watch. Or a $750.00 Louis Vuitton handbag. Or a $4K Snap On tool cabinet. Because many of these items sell for the prices they do only because of their name. And are flat out overpriced because of it. And a lot of these cheaper clones are not cheaper because they are, "stealing I.P.", or are lacking quality. Let's be honest. How hard is it to make a tool cabinet, or a wrench? They are cheaper because the original is insanely overpriced.

That's where I draw the line. I paid $185.00 for a beautiful Seiko Stainless Steel Chronograph. It has excellent craftsmanship that reflects it's fair price. I'm not saying it's as "good" as a Rolex..... But it's not $5K either. And I believe someone would have a difficult time showing me, or anyone else $4,815.00 worth of difference.

And just to set the record straight, I wouldn't buy a Rolex clone. Not because I think the quality of the high grade clone, like the one shown in the video, is lacking. I simply have no interest in fooling people into thinking I paid more for something than I did. I'm not that desperate to impress. But if someone is, I suppose I can understand their choice in choosing the clone. Especially with women and designer hand bags and such.

Back to your Cadex. There is no way you can get around it's cost. Sure you could have bought a cheaper rifle. But with all things equal, you would be hard pressed to find more accuracy and long range performance for less money. It can't be cloned for less. Certainly not much less. But I purchased my Atlas clone because of it's value for it's price. Something I feel the genuine Atlas was lacking. At least for $330.00.


OK, but why not buy something American and more reasonably priced? DMS, Simclair, even the old staple Harris (which I had on my last .308 and for a basic piece of kit, it was quite good and is the predominant choice of the PRS folk), and around the $200 mark you can get a Swagger, which is a nice piece of kit too.

I mean, I understand the issue with the price of the Atlas for what you are buying here, but for me, I'd just buy something else that presents a better perceived value if that was my hangup rather than buy a clone

 

[RooflessVW]

Deleted.

 

[OVERKILL]

Deleted because quoted post deleted.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
OK, but why not buy something American and more reasonably priced? DMS, Simclair, even the old staple Harris (which I had on my last .308 and for a basic piece of kit, it was quite good and is the predominant choice of the PRS folk), and around the $200 mark you can get a Swagger, which is a nice piece of kit too.

I mean, I understand the issue with the price of the Atlas for what you are buying here, but for me, I'd just buy something else that presents a better perceived value if that was my hangup rather than buy a clone.


Fair question. I have several Harris models. This is one of their short versions on a Colt 6940 Monolith. And a longer model on a Savage .308. They work OK, and are reasonably rigid. I don't care for all the springs hanging out. Along with all of the cheap looking sheet metal. And they are somewhat limited with leg position. I really liked the model Bushmaster included with my .50 BMG, and the Atlas looked about as close to that type of design as I could find. But there was no way I was going to drop $330.00 on one, for reasons we've already been over.

So when I found the clone, my first thought was like many, cheap Chinese junk. But the reviews were good, and the price even better. So I figured for $30.00 I'll take a chance. (It might have been $38.00, I can't remember). When it arrived I was very pleasantly surprised by the quality. (These are a couple of crummy phone pics I took when I got the first one). Everything locked up nice and tight. All the adjustments worked exactly as they were designed to. And the thing looked really good. After a few trips to the range I was sold.

So I ordered a couple more in black. (I should have done that with the first one). But for some reason I thought the silver looked better. It does, but it stands out too much. And the only all Stainless rifle I have is a Stainless Ruger Model 77 bolt action. And it has a wood laminate stock. I don't like attaching Bi-Pods to sling swivel studs on wood stocked rifles. Because I've seen cases where it pulled or pushed the stud laterally to the point of cracking the wood.

I should point out nowhere on the box, paperwork, or on the unit itself do the words, "Atlas" or, "China" appear anywhere. So I honestly don't know where it was made. I'm just assuming it was China. But most Chinese manufactured products have that stamped somewhere. They are just as proud of their products origin as we are with all of our, "Made In USA" printing and stamping that appears on our products and packaging.

So overall the clone looks good. Does exactly what it's supposed to do. And does it for 90% less cost. And again to be honest, if the Atlas was a bit more than the Harris, (which quite honestly is all it is worth). I would have bought one. For $125.00 to $150.00 yes. But not for $330.00.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by billt460
Back to your Cadex. There is no way you can get around it's cost. Sure you could have bought a cheaper rifle. But with all things equal, you would be hard pressed to find more accuracy and long range performance for less money. It can't be cloned for less. Certainly not much less. But I purchased my Atlas clone because of it's value for it's price. Something I feel the genuine Atlas was lacking. At least for $330.00.


But if a Chinese manufacturer (or a factory in an undisclosed location) were to make a replica with imprecise machining in the places that don't show, and knocked a grand off the price, you'd be all over it like white on rice, eh ?

Regardless of the engineering and efforts that Cadex put into it...after all, they deserve it, don't they ?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Shannow
But if a Chinese manufacturer (or a factory in an undisclosed location) were to make a replica with imprecise machining in the places that don't show, and knocked a grand off the price, you'd be all over it like white on rice, eh ?


"A grand" off the price of what? Make sense. We've already determined, and I've already stated these guns can't be cloned for the same quality and / or accuracy for much, if any less. If they could, they would. They're not.

 

[Shannow]

Just to add to the discussion of replica items...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4653662/Re:_Atlas_Bipod_Knockoff

The more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Just to add to the discussion.....

Yes, by all means let's "add" shall we? You are showing your total ignorance if you think a weapon would automatically be cheaper, and of less quality just because it came from China. It won't. Look at AK-47 models. (I know you can't because your country won't allow you own them). The highest quality models ever to be sold here were the Chinese manufactured Poly Tech Legend Models. The quality, fit, and finish was impeccable. And they weren't cheap.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by billt460
. We've already determined, and I've already stated these guns can't be cloned for the same quality and / or accuracy for much, if any less.


"We've already determined" ?

No, you made a statement to defuse your ridiculous "reproduction" strawman argument (AC Cobra yet anyone ?)
You flipped from fake Rolexes are a scam and the buyer deserves it... to Rolex are a scam and the buyer deserves to be scammed, and rollex deserve to be ripped off (sorry, replicated at lower cost)

It's your conjecture, and desire to distract "look over there a bunny" claim that these guns are "uncounterfeitable" (my term) . But this thread and the other, you state that if it's expensive...the owner of the technology deserves to lose...of course someone could knock off one of those rifles...you've filled enough scrap bins practice machining to know where you could cut a corner or two...it's not "impeccable" machining that happens in knockoffs, you stated the lack ofinternal finish in the fake Rolexes. You've been there, you've done that.

"Look over there, an AK47" (bunny)...plus "your country won't let you" (ad hominem)...standard Bullt460

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Shannow
But this thread and the other, you state that if it's expensive...the owner of the technology deserves to lose.


Show us with a direct quote where I ever stated that.

 

[billt460]

Can you please explain to me why I have to keep repeating myself over and over only because you don't get it? I mean really, it's getting old.

Items are cloned because they can be, period. While others can't. The biggest reason they can be is because they are drastically overpriced by the original manufacturer.
Rolex Stainless watches. Designer women's handbags and perfumes. Snap On tool cabinets. And yes, Atlas Bi-Pods. Want to see what items are overpriced in this manner? Easy, just look at how much they are cloned, and for how much less.

When someone can manufacture an item for 90% less than what the original costs, it isn't because they, "stole the technology", or use slave labor. That's bull. If cheap labor guaranteed profitability, NAFTA would have been a smashing success story in this country. Instead, 2 out of 3 companies that moved to Mexico to exploit it, ended up either going broke, or moving back.

Explain how the R&D, "intellectual property", manufacturing and material cost, in making something as simple as a tool cabniet, or ladies handbag, can be the cause of it costing over 10 to 20 times more? It can't be, period. The original manufacturer is simply ripping off it's customers at a higher rate. The 90% cost reduction of the clone proves this.

Where are all of these 90% cheaper long range rifles at? They don't exist because they can't. And it wouldn't matter if Cadex, Bushmaster, or anyone else published the blueprints of thier weapons to anyone who asked for them. So your whole comment about, "knocking a grand off the price", is nothing but stupid, bogus B.S. put forth to argue. Nothing more. And with you it's par for the course. You're constantly coming into these threads, shooting your mouth off in this manner by posting B.S., trying to start arguments. None of which changes these facts. You like to follow me around this board, much like a lost, inbred puppy, constantly looking for anything to start an argument with.

I'll say this once more. Again just for you. I have no trouble paying a fair price for good honest quality. But I won't be "ripped off" either. And if someone is trying to sell me something for over 10 times what someone else is, that spells rip off in capital letters. If you or anyone else doesn't see that, that's your problem. Then go ahead, be gullible and buy the original. Just don't come on here and try to tell me that I'm, "ripping them off". Because that is complete nonsense. The exact opposite is true.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Shannow
...if the designer/IP holder can't drop their prices, then ripoffs are a good thing ???)


Why are they "ripoffs"? A copy is a copy. There is nothing "wrong" with buying a lower cost copy, as long as the consumer knows it's a copy they are purchasing, and not the original. There is no deception being committed on the part of the seller. If someone is stupid enough to actually believe they're getting an original Rolex for $200.00, then they deserve to be scammed.


There is nothing wrong with buying a homage but that is totally different from a copy. Take the Rolex Submariner, there are many homages to it from low price Invicta to higher priced from companies like Omega and Maurice Lacroix and even Tudor which is owned by Rolex. None have the Rolex name or logo on it even though in the case of Tudor Rolex does in fact make the case and fits it with a commercially available chronometer grade ETA movement.

As soon as the Rolex name is on it its a fake not a homage anymore and that is crossing the line. I wont buy a copy aka knock off of anything that has the name of the original manufacturer on it.

 

[eddy21]

Slave labor labor drastically reduces price .

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by billt460
This hold true regardless of the product you are buying. Be it sunglasses, watches, or women's purses.

The problem with things like name brand sunglasses, like Ray-Ban, is trying to actually find them locally. The shops here have stated that the reps will only bring in a few pairs at a time. It's not like the days when you'd see a whack of them at the optician, you'd pay a little extra, and he'd give you some service. The reps know they're not moving anymore from these stores.

When I buy a pair of sunglasses, I don't want a counterfeit. I don't want a reproduction. I don't want a replication. I want to buy what I'm ordering, and that requires either finding a reputable seller or buying directly from the manufacturer.

As for whether Rolex is a rip off, quality materials, R&D, and paying watchmakers more than $1 a day costs money.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways
Now you resort to ad hominem attacks........

No, I've simply resorted to speaking the truth. You need to grow up, and stop with all the false dramatics.


No, you simply are defending the indefensible.

You are a poster child for making owning a counterfeit product a crime, and punishing it with public flogging.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Shannow
But if a Chinese manufacturer (or a factory in an undisclosed location) were to make a replica with imprecise machining in the places that don't show, and knocked a grand off the price, you'd be all over it like white on rice, eh ?


"A grand" off the price of what? Make sense. We've already determined, and I've already stated these guns can't be cloned for the same quality and / or accuracy for much, if any less. If they could, they would. They're not.


Except...I recall importing rifles chambered in .50BMG or larger (with a few exceptions for big-game calibers) is prohibited by F-troop.