Cost of ethanol blends?

[Shannow]

Sort of sun-up to sundown ?

that's what I thought too.

That's the time of the day that all them solar panels are making the tractor zero emissions too...hmmmm…

Actually, it's interesting looking at the batteries...130KW for 4 hours...520KWh, and it's BIG batteries. The Tesla truck will need 1.2MWh of storage...over twice what's on that tractor.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ


https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/electric-john-deere-tractor-runs-for-4-hours-on-a-charge/

4 hours on a charge (or 34 miles range) and three hours to charge.

Hope that they are cheap enough that the farmer can have two of them, one to do work, one to charge.

Can really see them catching on...



The article states:
Quote:
This prototype machine produces 130kW (174hp) of continuous power
Which is not correct, it has a 130kWh battery.

Let's do the math: 130kWh x 0.9 battery discharge efficiency x 0.9 motor efficency(generous) = 105 kWh useable. It has 300 kW(402 hp) of motor at full power. That's 0.35 hr (21 minutes) at full power.

For S&G I ran the numbers against one of John Deere's greatest from the past, the 1938 John Deere B to compare how much work these two tractors could do on one "tank" of fuel at their full rated power. The B is rated to run at 90% power continuously. That's 16.65 hp consuming 1.67 gallons of fuel per hour, for a 8.38 hour run time on its 14 gallon total fuel capacity.

1938 B: 8.38 hr x 16.65 hp = 139.53 hp-hr
JD Electric: 0.35 hr x 402 hp = 140.7 hp-hr

Ed

 

[Shannow]

Ed, can you hook me up with the battery capacity being 130KWh...that makes the Tesla 1.2MW TEN times as big.

OK, found multiple links on the battery capacity...I'm even less than impressed now.

Plowing for 21 minutes and a 3 hour recharge...that's incredible.

 

[turtlevette]

Or maybe just use biodiesel.

 

[Shannow]

Energy ROI for biodiesel is clearly much better than ethanol as a fuel...why wouldn't you just run the cars on the road on biodiesel rather than ethanol ?

(of course you would use ethanol rather than methanol for the reaction...One meeting I was presenting at, as I spoke, put canola oil, and a pre-prepared Sodium Ethoxide (NaOH/Anhydrous ethanol) into a scientific bottle, and handed it to the first person in the front row...asked them to shake it once and pass it on...by the time it got back to me, it was biodiesel and glycerine in separate layers...can do it with E85 as an anhydrous ethanol substitute, and the biodiesel ends up co-mixed with gasoline...won't use it in my Common Rails, but DO seek out fuels with 2% bio)

 

[TiredTrucker]

Because a subsidy is a direct movement of money or property coming from someone else via the conduit of the Government to the individual or group that it is intended. Not taxing someone on a product is not a subsidy, unless of course, one has the mindset that all property, money, etc belongs to the collective of the people and individuals or entities must pay the collective via taxation to properly keep the money or property.

It may well indeed be construed as unfair taxation, but it is not a subsidy. Not taking money from an individual or group cannot be construed as a subsidy except by those who think that all wealth and property belong to the collective.... aka Socialism and Communism.

From the dictionary on my computer.....

Subsidy noun (plural subsidies)

1 a sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive: a farm subsidy | they disdain government subsidy.
• a sum of money granted to support an arts organization or other undertaking held to be in the public interest.
• a grant or contribution of money.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Energy ROI for biodiesel is clearly much better than ethanol as a fuel...why wouldn't you just run the cars on the road on biodiesel rather than ethanol ?

(of course you would use ethanol rather than methanol for the reaction...One meeting I was presenting at, as I spoke, put canola oil, and a pre-prepared Sodium Ethoxide (NaOH/Anhydrous ethanol) into a scientific bottle, and handed it to the first person in the front row...asked them to shake it once and pass it on...by the time it got back to me, it was biodiesel and glycerine in separate layers...can do it with E85 as an anhydrous ethanol substitute, and the biodiesel ends up co-mixed with gasoline...won't use it in my Common Rails, but DO seek out fuels with 2% bio)


Well, the majority of diesel at the pumps today is laced with between 5% and 20% biodiesel, at least in the venues I get diesel in 12 different states. I have been using the stuff for over 10 years. Did you also know, that the ethanol plants, by the processes they use, provide corn oil to the Biodiesel folks to also make biodiesel from? So it is not just soybeans and animal fats that are being used.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

Well, the majority of diesel at the pumps today is laced with between 5% and 20% biodiesel, at least in the venues I get diesel in 12 different states. I have been using the stuff for over 10 years. Did you also know, that the ethanol plants, by the processes they use, provide corn oil to the Biodiesel folks to also make biodiesel from? So it is not just soybeans and animal fats that are being used.


OK...the majority of diesel IS
well at least the places that you buy diesel.

So which is it ?

And how do you know what percentage
a) you are buying
b) what the majority are buying ?

 

[Shannow]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1894...les-since-1992/
say 3,000,000BPD of diesel consumption for 2015.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel_in_the_United_States
Biodiesel peak in 2015 was 1.813 billion gallons. 43,166,666 barrels for the year, or 940,000BPD


940,000/3,000,000 = 3.13%

way closer to the 2% that I chase when I buy.

So "the majority of diesel at the pumps today" IS NOT 5%, nor even close to 20%...

So where do you make up get your numbers from tt ?

HFCS is also a corn product that may lead to brain damage.

 

[Shannow]

Oh, and when are you lining up to buy your Tesla Semi ?

They are only months away....

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Ed, can you hook me up with the battery capacity being 130KWh...that makes the Tesla 1.2MW TEN times as big.

OK, found multiple links on the battery capacity...I'm even less than impressed now.

Plowing for 21 minutes and a 3 hour recharge...that's incredible.
The Model A when introduced was not near as refined as cars of today, this just might be the case with JDs first prototype electric tractor.. Snap that buggy whip there Shannow......

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Plowing for 21 minutes and a 3 hour recharge...that's incredible.
The Model A when introduced was not near as refined as cars of today, this just might be the case with JDs first prototype electric tractor.. Snap that buggy whip there Shannow......

Now you're just being silly. Tractors do a lot more work than a car will ever do.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Plowing for 21 minutes and a 3 hour recharge...that's incredible.
The Model A when introduced was not near as refined as cars of today, this just might be the case with JDs first prototype electric tractor.. Snap that buggy whip there Shannow......

Now you're just being silly. Tractors do a lot more work than a car will ever do.
It's also silly to expect the first prototype to be fully developed.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Plowing for 21 minutes and a 3 hour recharge...that's incredible.
The Model A when introduced was not near as refined as cars of today, this just might be the case with JDs first prototype electric tractor.. Snap that buggy whip there Shannow......

Now you're just being silly. Tractors do a lot more work than a car will ever do.
It's also silly to expect the first prototype to be fully developed.
We're a long way from getting 10+ hours of battery on a large farm tractor/machine. From looking around the future of these machines appear to be autonomous tractors that can work 24 hours a day. Batteries aren't going to be relevant for a while.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: hatt
We're a long way from getting 10+ hours of battery on a large farm tractor/machine. From looking around the future of these machines appear to be autonomous tractors that can work 24 hours a day. Batteries aren't going to be relevant for a while.
That's a fact and today's cars are a long way from the Model A. They call this Research and Development......

And today's corn and soybean farmer actually use a tractor much less than back in the day. I bet they don't run 25% of the time they use to 20 years ago. Most have their fields tilled and planted in two weeks anymore vs three months.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: hatt
We're a long way from getting 10+ hours of battery on a large farm tractor/machine. From looking around the future of these machines appear to be autonomous tractors that can work 24 hours a day. Batteries aren't going to be relevant for a while.
That's a fact and today's cars are a long way from the Model A. They call this Research and Development......

And today's corn and soybean farmer actually use a tractor much less than back in the day. I bet they don't run 25% of the time they use to 20 years ago. Most have their fields tilled and planted in two weeks anymore vs three months.

Actually your comparison to the Model A is irrelevant. The Model A has an internal combustion engine operating much the same as today's engines, the only difference is in the details. For this example today's cars are not a "long way" from the Model A at all. You might have made a better argument if you brought up the Stanley steam car, but even then that utilizes a hydrocarbon fuel and only falls short on efficiency.

What have you got that is a better comparison? Something like a wind-up car or wind powered one that has somehow increased its efficiency by say 30X?

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: hatt
We're a long way from getting 10+ hours of battery on a large farm tractor/machine. From looking around the future of these machines appear to be autonomous tractors that can work 24 hours a day. Batteries aren't going to be relevant for a while.
That's a fact and today's cars are a long way from the Model A. They call this Research and Development......

And today's corn and soybean farmer actually use a tractor much less than back in the day. I bet they don't run 25% of the time they use to 20 years ago. Most have their fields tilled and planted in two weeks anymore vs three months.
Well no kidding. Look at the size of an old tractor vs the monsters we have today. My Ford 641 was a decent sized tractor in the 50s. It's a toy on a current farm. With your electric tractors they'll be back to months! Progress!!!!

But seriously. Battery tractors are a ways off. John Deere concept tractors are simply for show.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: hatt

But seriously. Battery tractors are a ways off. John Deere concept tractors are simply for show.
Isn't that the point of promotional videos on the development of new technologies?

And the reason for the post in the first place was to show that farming will not always be completely dependent on fossil fuels.

We can hold of advancement in technologies if we just ridicule them enough...

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Energy ROI for biodiesel is clearly much better than ethanol as a fuel...why wouldn't you just run the cars on the road on biodiesel rather than ethanol ?

(of course you would use ethanol rather than methanol for the reaction...One meeting I was presenting at, as I spoke, put canola oil, and a pre-prepared Sodium Ethoxide (NaOH/Anhydrous ethanol) into a scientific bottle, and handed it to the first person in the front row...asked them to shake it once and pass it on...by the time it got back to me, it was biodiesel and glycerine in separate layers...can do it with E85 as an anhydrous ethanol substitute, and the biodiesel ends up co-mixed with gasoline...won't use it in my Common Rails, but DO seek out fuels with 2% bio)


Well, the majority of diesel at the pumps today is laced with between 5% and 20% biodiesel, at least in the venues I get diesel in 12 different states. I have been using the stuff for over 10 years. Did you also know, that the ethanol plants, by the processes they use, provide corn oil to the Biodiesel folks to also make biodiesel from? So it is not just soybeans and animal fats that are being used.


Ethanol plants don’t produce corn oil. That is done separate from the ethanol process by separating the germ and sending to an extraction plant.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Ed, can you hook me up with the battery capacity being 130KWh...that makes the Tesla 1.2MW TEN times as big.

OK, found multiple links on the battery capacity...I'm even less than impressed now.

Plowing for 21 minutes and a 3 hour recharge...that's incredible.
The Model A when introduced was not near as refined as cars of today, this just might be the case with JDs first prototype electric tractor.. Snap that buggy whip there Shannow......

I know that you use your imagination rather than understanding of energy storage/utilisation, in spite of claiming to be part of the industry...OK, use your imagination now...look at the battery pack on the tractor...

See how much room it takes...what's your proposed solution to getting a decent useful charge into it...20 of those packs, and a trailer to drag it ?

OK, Magic happens, the battery storage doubles and recharge time halves...45 minutes running, 90 minutes parked...what technology HAS to evolve to make them useful ?


See, it's at this point in these discussions about how your imagination works versus real practicalities always hit a logical tipping point where you forget what you are arguing.

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
And today's corn and soybean farmer actually use a tractor much less than back in the day. I bet they don't run 25% of the time they use to 20 years ago. Most have their fields tilled and planted in two weeks anymore vs three months.


Don't you think that they are using their tractors INTENSIVELY in that period to get that level of productivity ?

You can't use an annualised one hour per day use of a tractor in a field to justify a (prototype) tractor that's only useful one hour per day, in four 15 minute blocks.