Cost of ethanol blends?

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OK, going to type really slowly for you two...

Go back and read what I SAID, as opposed to what you are stating I said and asking me to defend...you lot LOVE that technique.

A tax break is a subsidy...that's all I said.

Turtle stated a number of 1,000...I want to see his evidence
 
If what these gentlemen say is correct, then ethanol is double subsidized - once directly and once through subsidizing the oil that was used in producing it.
laugh.gif
 
Many things are subsidised, get tax breaks, favored treatment so on and so forth. You guys really need to get off that and discuss technical aspects. And no, the technically superior product doesn't always rise to the top in our economic system.

I'm very disappointed in self proclaimed engineers and scientists that think the cheapest of everything and penny pinching should always rule the day. The government mandates a lot of things that benefit mankind. You think private business would have sent a man to the moon, defeated disease, and a million other things.

I've fought people like shannow all my career having to justify how something is going to save pennies. People who can't see past next quarters profits. People who don't want to do anything that hasn't been done before. That's why I'm bothered so much.
 
The biggest subsidy for ethanol is the mandate to use it. Other than that the blenders get a tax credit.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Many things are subsidised, get tax breaks, favored treatment so on and so forth. You guys really need to get off that and discuss technical aspects. And no, the technically superior product doesn't always rise to the top in our economic system.


OK, please remind us why ethanol as a fuel in ICE is technically superior to gasoline / diesel.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The government mandates a lot of things that benefit mankind. You think private business would have sent a man to the moon, [...]


Do you think a flight to the moon and back would be possible with EPA-like rules such as diluting the fuel with minimum 10% ethanol and imposing emission limits?
 
Originally Posted By: nap
turtlevette said:
OK, please remind us why ethanol as a fuel in ICE is technically superior to gasoline / diesel.



1. Makes more power. You could stop there as far as I'm concerned
2. Cleaner
3. Renewable ( We never run out)
4. Can be used in everything with minor modifications
5. Prevents big spikes in oil prices. I saw an article today saying a perfect storm could have oil prices at $250 barrel.
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette

1. Makes more power. You could stop there as far as I'm concerned


Most cars can do more than the legal limit...boy racers don't need the power...argument is moot for road going vehicles, which is the topic of conversation, and the target for substitution.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
2. Cleaner


In what regard ?

Better CO and HC, much greater aldehyde and carcinogen emissions...

Production ?

If it gets into groundwater, it's soluble, which is not a good thing for cleanup.

(see note re your vette acouple of points down)

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
3. Renewable ( We never run out)


with only a 40% (if you are lucky) nett energy yield, it's not that renewable...do the farms run on ethanol or diesel ?

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
4. Can be used in everything with minor modifications


So it's not a "standard" substitution...yes the industry went elastomerically to allow ethanol...regulators want to stretch beyond THAT design...yes, it can be dome, but what about the rest of the cars on the road ?

Have you checked the actual stoichiometry of your vet with your back yard conversion on the Q-Jet...I would be my left one that it's all over the shop...and that's not "cleaner", when you are running mixtures all over the place.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
5. Prevents big spikes in oil prices. I saw an article today saying a perfect storm could have oil prices at $250 barrel.


We've already established, and you agreed that ethanol as a commodity TRACKS oil prices.

In use, it's a minor component in Gasoline, which is obtained from crude, a commodity which has many many more uses than gasoline (including the diesel and fertilisers needed to grow the corn).
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I've fought people like shannow all my career having to justify how something is going to save pennies. People who can't see past next quarters profits. People who don't want to do anything that hasn't been done before. That's why I'm bothered so much.


LOL ad hominin...it's that part of the dance eh turtle ?

You are so predictable. And as usual, and you should know this from the years here...which makes your attack so ridiculous.

I've always been a "rational" engineer, focussed on doing more with less resources, including major efficiency projects..YOUR version of engineering seems to be based on what you would LIKE physics/chemistry/science to be.

(e.g. your misunderstanding of hydrodynamic lubrication, governor theory, system frequency response and stability, energy return on energy investment....etc...etc...)

I WANT engineers making the decisions on topics like these, rather than lobby and interest groups, who, as amply demonstrated in this thread are prepared to do nothing short of lying to misrepresent their "case"
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow


LOL ad hominin...it's that part of the dance eh turtle ?

You are so predictable. And as usual, and you should know this from the years here...which makes your attack so ridiculous.


I'm just concerned that you've lost your way. I mean your one of my best friends. I'm serious

Just because a commodity tracks with another in price doesn't mean they don't dampen oscillations of each.

Anti ethanol people try to say its just as polluting as gasoline. So we've been adding it to gas for cleaner air for 30 years and its just one big dumb mistake?

Gasoline requires a lot of energy to retrieve from the depths, transport, refine, and transport. I'd like to see a fair comparison of energy costs. If ethanol were that much of an energy pig how can they sell it so cheap?
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
5. Prevents big spikes in oil prices. I saw an article today saying a perfect storm could have oil prices at $250 barrel.

What would prevent a big spike in ethanol prices? I'm not being obstructive, I'm just genuinely interested in that.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
5. Prevents big spikes in oil prices. I saw an article today saying a perfect storm could have oil prices at $250 barrel.

What would prevent a big spike in ethanol prices? I'm not being obstructive, I'm just genuinely interested in that.


Tell me why a competing product wouldn't. Natural gas competes with oil even though it moves with oil in price. If natural gas were to dry up what would happen?
 
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Of course, natural gas would increase in price if the supply disappeared. I'm just curious how we protect ourselves from ethanol price spikes, if we're worried about oil price spikes. Look what happened to LPG in Canada. It was a great alternative fuel until the pricing ended up jumping the shark.

At least a flex fuel vehicle has the advantage of doing "something else" if one or the other winds up with screwy pricing.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
5. Prevents big spikes in oil prices. I saw an article today saying a perfect storm could have oil prices at $250 barrel.

What would prevent a big spike in ethanol prices? I'm not being obstructive, I'm just genuinely interested in that.
He's brought up that nonsense before. Ethanol production is dependent on petroleum and at the same time does little to increase the overall supply of energy.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Its not dependent on petroleum.

What do the tractors and trucks run on? What are the ag chemicals made out of?
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Its not dependent on petroleum.

What do the tractors and trucks run on? What are the ag chemicals made out of?


What must it be mixed with 15% to 90% to be used as a motor fuel?

Ethanol is 100% dependent on petroleum and other fossil fuels(electricity for distillation) for its production, transportation, and final use as a fuel.

Ed
 
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