Copper salts might replace ZDDP?

[BigTimeTA]

Interesting video. The possibility of using copper as an alternative to ZDDP in engine oils is explored. Then the mechanism of organic copper salts work, how they create an anti-wear layer, and why they are chosen are illustrated.

Do you think copper can completely replace ZDDP in engine oils? And
what are the potential risks and benefits of using copper as an anti-wear additive?

 

[MolaKule]

@BigTimeTA One of the reasons we have to have metal inhibitor chemistry in

Additives XII-Multifunctional additives

As a review of additives, let us do this: Name at least one additive that functions in more than role. That is, name one or more of the Multifunctional additives. [ July 21, 2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]

bobistheoilguy.com

addpacks is to keep the metals from reacting with other stuff and to prevent sludge formation.

We have copper naphthenates, copper DTC's (CuDTC), etc. No detail was given re: the molecular part of the chemistry but I'll try to find the research and or patent.

The video/audio personnel need to increase the treble and reduce the bass for a voice like his.

 

[MolaKule]

Mobil had earlier similar technology patents ; 4,200,546 and 4,211,663, and 4,225, 448 the latter one dealing with thiobis(alkylphenol-phenolates) and metal salts--but these were mainly anti-corrosives and anti-oxidants and were never tested for load carrying capabilities or friction.

 

[Cujet]

Interesting, for sure. Wonder how copper contamination would affect today's cats.

 

[MolaKule]

Interesting, for sure. Wonder how copper contamination would affect today's cats.

Good question.

Comprehensive testing with this chemistry is needed before the jury can render a verdict.

 

[addyguy]

In the 1970’s for a while, copper seemed to be a somewhat popular anti-wear agent.
If you look in the ‘testing e-bay oils’ article; you will see a few had about 100ppm.
Wonder if this is the same chemical just brought back around for another go…?

 

[meadows]

Gulf Oil had some oils with copper in them before Chevron bought them.

 

[JHZR2]

Interesting, for sure. Wonder how copper contamination would affect today's cats.

What’s to say it would at all? Unless it coated the dispersed metals…. Copper is chemically close to the active metals, and generally supports similar reaction mechanisms, even if not as active. Not sure if copper would alloy somehow with the Pt/Pd/Ir/etc and cause agglomeration.

 

[edhackett]

What’s to say it would at all? Unless it coated the dispersed metals…. Copper is chemically close to the active metals, and generally supports similar reaction mechanisms, even if not as active. Not sure if copper would alloy somehow with the Pt/Pd/Ir/etc and cause agglomeration.

Copper will gladly catalyze oxidation of the oil if left to its own devices.

Ed

 

[JHZR2]

Copper will gladly catalyze oxidation of the oil if left to its own devices.

Ed

Agree. But the question was about cat converters. You bring up another great point, albeit one that some fairly standard analytical processes can measure.

 

[weasley]

Another issue could be the masking of wear of yellow metal components in UOA. There would also be a potential conflict with the electronics industry regarding cost and availability of the copper. There may also be differences in toxicity and other such factors between copper and zinc compounds.

He addresses the possible wear regime and how copper might work, but there's no explanation for the "no SAPS" and "no TBN" claims, nor how acid neutralisation is either dealt with or negated. One thing that does come out is the likely absence of phosphorus, which is both the main workhorse but also the main issue with ZDDP.

Oh, and Paramins disappeared 25 years ago, so this discussion he mentioned was not recent!