Conventional Oil and Direct Injection? thoughts?

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: nickaluch
Life is short. Buy a good used Accord or Camry. More comfortable ride then then any small penalty box.


I agree, definitely get a comfortable car for the long commute. It makes more sense from an "enjoying life" view point.

Synthetic oil isn't that much more expensive then conventional, so I don't understand what the fuss is about.

It's not like a gallon of synthetic is $70 while conventional is $15. The price difference is $5 at best.

Even if you dump it early (3-5k miles for example) I wouldn't call that waste. Your engine still benefits from higher quality oil providing that extra bit of protection / performance.

 

[wemay]

OP,

As many have opined, the use of Synthetic oils and common sense oil change intervals for GDI, T-GDI and even MPI can only benefit your vehicle. Will the occasional Conventional Oil change cause harm? Highly doubtful. An example of this is the large segment of Hyundai owners with maintenance included agreements where only Conventional oil is used (unless you pay for Syn) and no indication of widespread issues. If you dislike Synthetic oils as much as you say you do, get a GDi vehicle that doesn't require/recommend it and change the oil at the severe service interval. Being a BITOG member, i'm sure you're on top of the maintenance of the vehicles in your purview.

Good luck with the new vehicle

 

[wemay]

diplicate

 

[CT8]

what does the owners manual recommend ?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

OP:

Here I go again

Most of what you buy in North America from the top brands as "fully synthetic" or "conventional" (there is no conventional ILSAC GF5) will be premium hydroprocessed/cracked petroleum oil or at the MOST ( e.g: M1 EP ) a SEMI synthetic blend.

The days of most "fully synthetic" being majority POA base is gone, baby gone. "Synthetic" may likely not penalize preig having much to do with DP % in the blend. Many syn that are not BMW LL could have LESS metal salts than a "conventional" as the saturated, homogeneous base oil is more resistant to reduction.

IDK what the manufacturers say, High compression + regular gas + moderated EGR = ping or knock. Price of forced "progress". CAFE CAFE CAFE!

Even my Nissan with port + 9:1 pings at low speed.
The Honda Fit didn't it had a elaborate EGR system. Plus I ran that 1.5L in TOP GEAR at 300-500 higher RPM than the manufacturer would say is OK at low speed cruise.

Don't use the word "synthetic" as a catch all, It can be MANY things to many people, and it very likely ISNT what you think it should BE.

 

[MONKEYMAN]

Originally Posted By: sopususer
Do the Elantra with the 2.0 and you'll have multiport injection and no turbo. The 17's are highly regarded for fit, finish, and overall quality, and if you like conventional oil, the engine characteristics of the Hyundai and a good conventional oil might be a sweet combination that will last for many miles.


My Elantra has been great. Like sopususer said multiport. Benifits on highway best mileage around 50 mpg (going 60). Going to see stepfather in country averaged 45 mpg. My 99 Saturn would get 33. Very easy to change oil. I do it with car on garage floor. They made a cut out on plastic cover so easy to get to drain plug and filter. Not everyone likes the seat. It is OK for me. Plenty of power for my needs (has Sport mode if you need more spirited driving). Highway economy is amazing. City, not so much. Mine is very basic with radio, 15" wheels and hubcaps. A nice appliance to transport people which I do often at work.

 

[bigj_16]

IMHO, let me repeat that. In My Humble OPINION, for these GDI or TGDI engines, the bugaboo is soot accumulation, LSPI and , POSSIBLY, fuel dilution, depending on your engine, driving conditions, and driving habits. Therefore, even though a higher "quality" oil may be of benefit(particularly for LSPI), the best thing to do would be to change it out. Regularly. And often. Anyone that tells you differently is just living in the past. There's a reason all the auto manufacturers are freaking on this SN Plus and GF-6. With all of the rebates being offered(right now, PP,QSUD, Rotella) you can change your oil early and often for a relatively small expense.

Of course there is going to be someone that posts, that runs a 5000 car fleet of TGDI engines, in conditions ranging from -50 F to 150 F, stop and go autobahn, for 1,000,000 each per year on 44 year old Quaker State 50W-70, and had negative fuel dilution, and all of the additives increased, particularly calcium.

Until the new SN Plus/GF-6 standards and data are released, my recommendation would be this (in general) for a DI engine:
Run a D1G2 oil, if it meets your warranty standards. Change it, at no more than a 5k interval. If you think it is severe service, particularly winter short tripping, lower that interval.

 

[MRtv]

I own a Versa Note. Mostly driven by my wife but I really enjoy the car when I drive it. I change the oil on the severe service schedule which is 3750 miles. Actually I change it at around 3000 just to be easier on the math. Anyway I am presently using Chevron Supreme. The oil required in this vehicle does not specify the need for synthetic. I have used it in this car but still change it out on the severe service schedule. Nothing in the owners manual recommends or says that synthetic can be run longer in the engine. It just says run 5w30 SN rated oil. I would think with your driving on the freeway you could easily go the longer oil change recommendations with this vehicle. 5000 to 7000 miles would not be a problem in that case. Using Costco regular gas I am getting 38-40 miles hwy and 32-36 around town.

The only thing I don't like about this car is the lack of ability to change the trasmission fluid in the CVT transmission. I am one who is pretty anal about changing fluids. I learned that many decades ago as friends and family paid out for new or rebuilt transmissions that they never changed fluids in. I started looking into how to avoid that bill. I have been very lucky so far with regular fluid changes to not have to endure that bill. The CVT fluid change is the only service I have had to go to the dealer for so far. I do all others myself.

 

[Alex_V]

If the engine is just DI conventional oil might suffice, but I'd never put conventional in a DI/turbo such as the Cruze. The first gens (port-injection, not DI) have acquired a generally poor reputation, due as much as anything to turbo failures as early as 20-30K - because GM initially spec'd Dexos1 gen 1 syn blend @ 10K intervals. I've always run my '13 with Synpower at 5K intervals and, gee, it's at 108K and has been trouble-free. The second gen 1.4 turbo engine is a different design, and DI, but I'd still apply the same logic to its lubrication regimen.

 

[johnchui1984]

HI, I am a commuter too driving 150 miles from school/work to home which takes 2 hours and 30 minutes 5 days per week. I suggest to buy a brand new compact car instead of buying used car if you have the budget because you will be trouble-free for at least 60000 miles. I drive a 2016 Nissan Versa sedan with CVT and the seats (front and back) are comfy. MPG is great 37-43 for me. AC conditioning is decent and overall it is a really good car in the price range.

Though there are some issues in the Nissan Versa they are rather minor and some of them can actually be fixed.
1. The CVT will sometimes fake shift to pretend to be a legendary automatic transmission which you may not used toa
2. The engine will konck/vibrate occasionally if driving under 25MPH. I just found the workaround which is to use 0W40 Mobil 1/Castrol Edge engine oil instead of 10W30/5W30 specified by the owner's manual. The engine is perfectly smooth now. I know the 2018 models recomend 0W20 engine oil, which sounds retarded to me. To fellow Versa owners I suggest at least using 5W30/10W30 for a balance of economy and engine smoothness with HTHS > 2.9, compared to 0W20 with HTHS around 2.6

Given the price I think the Nissan Versa is the best choice. I also like Mitsubishi Mirage which comes with many feautures with the downside of only having 75HP horsepower. Cruze is OK if the dealers do not exaggerate the MSRP. Forget Elantra. You have the choice to buy from American or Japanese manufacturers which have great reputation.

 

[eyeofthetiger]

Originally Posted By: johnchui1984
HI, I am a commuter too driving 150 miles from school/work to home which takes 2 hours and 30 minutes 5 days per week. I suggest to buy a brand new compact car instead of buying used car if you have the budget because you will be trouble-free for at least 60000 miles. I drive a 2016 Nissan Versa sedan with CVT and the seats (front and back) are comfy. MPG is great 37-43 for me. AC conditioning is decent and overall it is a really good car in the price range.

Though there are some issues in the Nissan Versa they are rather minor and some of them can actually be fixed.
1. The CVT will sometimes fake shift to pretend to be a legendary automatic transmission which you may not used toa
2. The engine will konck/vibrate occasionally if driving under 25MPH. I just found the workaround which is to use 0W40 Mobil 1/Castrol Edge engine oil instead of 10W30/5W30 specified by the owner's manual. The engine is perfectly smooth now. I know the 2018 models recomend 0W20 engine oil, which sounds retarded to me. To fellow Versa owners I suggest at least using 5W30/10W30 for a balance of economy and engine smoothness with HTHS > 2.9, compared to 0W20 with HTHS around 2.6

Given the price I think the Nissan Versa is the best choice. I also like Mitsubishi Mirage which comes with many feautures with the downside of only having 75HP horsepower. Cruze is OK if the dealers do not exaggerate the MSRP. Forget Elantra. You have the choice to buy from American or Japanese manufacturers which have great reputation.


Your fix for the knocking engine is interesting. You should work for Nissan's engineering department, because they can't figure it out (or they don't really care, and would rather sweep it under the rug). I also had a 2016 Versa with an engine knock. Nissan's solution was the replace the engine at about 2000 miles. When the second engine started knocking a thousand miles later, they brought out an "expert" "engineer" who "was never wrong", and he claimed the knocking was in the manual transmission (even though I could easily tell that was not the case by revving the engine with the clutch depresssed and the transmission in gear). They insisted on replacing the manual transmission, so I let them. It was clear that they did not even bother to test drive the car afterward, beacuse when I picked it up it was still knocking, and the alignment was way off from when they dropped the subframe or disconnected the steering. On the multiple occasions that my Versa was in the shop, I got to sample loaner cars such as the Altima, Sentra, and Versa Note CVT. I am sorry to say, they were absolute garbage. Thanks to the lemon law, you can see that I no longer drive the Versa. The Fiesta is a better car in every possible way, except for rear seat room. I would not consider the Versa for a highway commute, as it is very unstable. I even put all new tires on it at 7000 miles and had the alignment rerechecked, and it didn't matter. The car is only good for dinking around the city with a knocking engine. The Fiesta is so much more competent on the highway. In fact, my 1988 GMC is more stable on the highway than the Versa. I am sorry.

 

[johnchui1984]

In terms of the HR16DE problem, I have discussed with the dealer about the engine knocking and they gave me a warranty paper which Nissan states that the knocking is due to the release of the torque converter in order to achieve better fuel economy. I am not an engineer but my experience is that switching to a 40 grade oil from 30 weight irons out the problem. Another fellow Nissan owner has similar experience, thought his problem is only being the engine vibrate in highway speed revving 4k+. Link: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...ke_#Post4563199

Moreover, I regret to inform you that your words indicate that you are loyal to a brand, Ford, instead of judging cars by the purchase price and the maintenance cost. I analyze the cons and pros about buying a brand new compact sedan and for the 12500 cash I paid for, I could not find a good competitor against the Nissan Versa with CVT. If you want vibration-free, powerful 200+HP car with leather seats, please look for full size sedan instead of complaining the minor issues in a economy compact car.

 

[eyeofthetiger]

Originally Posted By: johnchui1984
In terms of the HR16DE problem, I have discussed with the dealer about the engine knocking and they gave me a warranty paper which Nissan states that the knocking is due to the release of the torque converter in order to achieve better fuel economy. I am not an engineer but my experience is that switching to a 40 grade oil from 30 weight irons out the problem. Another fellow Nissan owner has similar experience, thought his problem is only being the engine vibrate in highway speed revving 4k+. Link: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...ke_#Post4563199

Moreover, I regret to inform you that your words indicate that you are loyal to a brand, Ford, instead of judging cars by the purchase price and the maintenance cost. I analyze the cons and pros about buying a brand new compact sedan and for the 12500 cash I paid for, I could not find a good competitor against the Nissan Versa with CVT. If you want vibration-free, powerful 200+HP car with leather seats, please look for full size sedan instead of complaining the minor issues in a economy compact car.


I am sorry that you wish to turn this into some kind of personal issue. I don't want to make you feel bad about your car, but a knocking engine is not minor issue in any car, especially a brand new one. Do not let Nissan make up nonsense about the knocking being related to the torque converter. I had knocking with two engines, and two manual transmissions. The truth is that Nissan has a widespread problem that they are unable to fix, so they are doing their best to cover it up.

As far as brand loyalty: I have none. I have personally owned 27 cars, and only 4 of them have been Fords. The Versa was my second, and last Nissan. Nissan burned that bridge. I can forgive a manufacturing defect, but I will not tolerate being lied to. If they would have told me that the problem could be fixed simply by switching to 40-weight oil, then I would have been perfectly happy and would have kept the car. But no, they had to lie about it and insult my intelligence. I have my doubts about the Fiesta's long-term reliability, but for now it is clearly the better car. That sweet little engine really puts a smile on my face sometimes, and it only cost $1000 more than the Versa.

/thread derail

 

[SilverFusion2010]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
You can get synthetic oil on sale or with mail in rebates on some brands as cheap as the conventional.


This. Buy syn on sale for less than conventional and change when you feel like it

 

[JFAllen]

I'd never put conventional in a DI/turbo such as the Cruze. The first gens (port-injection, not DI) have acquired a generally poor reputation, due as much as anything to turbo failures as early as 20-30K - because GM initially spec'd Dexos1 gen 1 syn blend @ 10K intervals. I've always run my '13 with Synpower at 5K intervals and, gee, it's at 108K and has been trouble-free./quote]

The same is true for Saab's (especially the 9-5 and 9-3 from around the year 2000. Turbo's need high quality temperature stable oil that wont form deposits in the extreme conditions found inside the turbo bearing assembly.

I got my 9-5 at 150,000kms, it had a turbo failure (and replacement) at 120,000kms (~75,000miles) with a full service history and the recommended 12-month or 15,000kms oil changes with semi-syn as per Saab/GM specifications. Once I got the car I spent a long time 'de-sludging' the engine including pulling the sump and multiple oil flushes. Now only run Helix Ultra mid or low SAPS oil. The lifer tick went away, fuel economy improved significantly and it now drives like a brand new car with no smoke and smooth response. I'd never run mineral oils in my Saab, turbo race car or my Nissan GTi-R Pulsar 2.0LT. Turbo's need the cleanest of clean oils for a long and happy life.

While many fleet, off road and stationary large diesel engines run on Mineral oils (typically 15W40,) they:
-Are almost never shut down (and there is often a shutdown procedure that involves a 5-10 minute idle/turbo cooldown, to reduce the risk of deposits (coking) forming in the bearings. When was the last time you did a turbo cooldown on your personal car?)
-Run multi stage oil filtration systems, (these filters are often swapped out during an OCI with analysis done on the oil)
-Have massive sumps (dilution and temperature control)
-Operate at lower temperatures than petrol turbochargers (rare to see a diesel turbo glow bright red, even under heavy load, while it's easy to get a petrol turbo cherry red)
-Operate at a single sustained speed (significantly reduces thrust damage to the bearings cause by compressor surging during gear changes or on/off throttle applications.)

For these reasons the coking and oil grit that typically is associated with mineral oils in passenger turbo applications largely do-not arise. In severe non-watercooled petrol turbo applications where the bearing housing temperatures can easily exceed 4-500°C Poorer mineral oils can simply breakdown and varnish in the bearing during operation. Remember the residency time in the bearing for the oil is short. But the thermal stability of synthetics is of significant benefit here. GTL and PAO base oils providing the best stability. (easy to see now why I use Helix ultra in my vehicles

)

These reasons are also why sustained highway driving (even with a heavy load) puts the least wear on your lubrication system. Everything is at steady state, with sufficient airflow to keep all temperatures in check. Oil pressure is up and since the engine is under load, cylinder temps+pressures are up, limiting build-ups and in some cases actually burning them off (the good old Italian tune-up.)

 

[JFAllen]

Originally Posted By: johnchui1984
HI, I am a commuter too driving 150 miles from school/work to home which takes 2 hours and 30 minutes 5 days per week.

(assuming that's a round trip, double these number for a 1-way)

God Dam!! that's 3,000miles (~5,000kms) a month!!! (60,000kms a year!!!!)

that's 30 US gallons a week (at 40mpg so ~113L,) Thus 120gal or 450L a month or there about...

At the average price of $2.5/gal that's ~$300USD a month just in fuel cost to commute to work (dam USA and there super cheap petrol. Cost would be $480USD/$630AUD in Australia or I don't want to imagine in the UK or Europe,) + regular maintenance (tyres at least 1 set a year?/oil/filters)

My question is: Have you considered moving closer to where you work/study?

Regards
Jordan

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted By: JFAllen
Originally Posted By: johnchui1984
HI, I am a commuter too driving 150 miles from school/work to home which takes 2 hours and 30 minutes 5 days per week.

(assuming that's a round trip, double these number for a 1-way)

God Dam!! that's 3,000miles (~5,000kms) a month!!! (60,000kms a year!!!!)

that's 30 US gallons a week (at 40mpg so ~113L,) Thus 120gal or 450L a month or there about...

At the average price of $2.5/gal that's ~$300USD a month just in fuel cost to commute to work (dam USA and there super cheap petrol. Cost would be $480USD/$630AUD in Australia or I don't want to imagine in the UK or Europe,) + regular maintenance (tyres at least 1 set a year?/oil/filters)

My question is: Have you considered moving closer to where you work/study?

Regards
Jordan


LOL I did that and move from 45 miles one way to work to 2.5 miles it was just like getting a raise.

 

[JoelB]

The mirage has port injection and no turbo, buy that! Plus it only takes 3 quarts of oil per change. Of course i'm a little biased...

 

[johnchui1984]

HI man. Apologize for late reply and thanks for your suggestion if I consider move closer I would like to share my experience in the followings:

You are right it is a round trip. 70 miles one way so every day it would be ~140 miles. It would be around 3000 miles driven each month. I usually fill up at Exxon/Shell with 87 octane @ USD 2.2, so the fuel cost is around USD 200.

My regular maintenance is one oil change every month (~30) , and every year two air filters change (~30), four new tires with alignment (~ 500), CVT fluid change (~150), Drive belt and radiator cap (~150). I wash my car, vacuum etc, twice every week by myself (free).

Therefore, the annual cost of commuting is around USD 3500 in terms of the car, and 6000 in terms of rent, food and all other stuff. Total 9000-10000 living cost for a year.

If I move closer to school and work, I will have to pay 12000 annually and therefore save 150 minutes traffic time every day. Since I will be living alone in this case, everyday I have to spend time to wait for the bus (~15-30 minutes), house cleaning, clothes washing etc.

I think both of the choices are not very good for me, but I have no other choice at this moment. And there are many people who work hard for their lives I think I am not the worst case so I try to accept my current situation and spend my time effectively.

And happy Christmas to everyone!

 

[johnchui1984]

Man you are right. I would love to move closer to school/work