Yep, that's much like a regular 15w-40 here. Some of the Aussies and perhaps the Europeans have seen 15w-40 grades that aren't CJ-4 and/or E7, E9 rated. I've never seen a 15w-40 that wasn't rated CJ-4 or with a previous diesel specification here.
CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines..
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Originally Posted By: Garak
As an aside, I wonder how many PCMO 15w-40 oils are identical to our CJ-4/SM 15w-40s. I know Wakefield Canada up here offers enough Castrol 15w-40 HDEOs that there's a good chance something matches something else somewhere else.
15w40 PCMO in this part of the world is the popular grade like 10w30 is, or was in North America. 15w40 has really been the staple dating back to around the API SF/SG era. I've had a number of European vehicles that called exclusively for 15w40.
15w40 PCMO was typically SF/CD or SG/CF etc and not HDEO re-badged. Workshops would typically carry a 15w40 PCMO and 15w40 HDEO to cover almost everything.
15w40 PCMO today is now typically SN/CF, A3/B3 or A3/B4 rated and would be almost as popular for light diesels as it would be for petrol engines. Our light diesels tend to be 2L-3L 4 or 6 cylinder Asian and European offerings.
Most likely for that reason, ACEA PCMO is slowly replacing API HDEO for diesel passenger cars and LCV. The majority of workshops would use some sort of 5w30 SN, C3 (dexos 2) type lube for newer petrol and diesels with DPFs and a 15w40 A3/B4 for older or non DPF diesels. It also doubles as a thicker lube for older petrol cars.
As an aside, I wonder how many PCMO 15w-40 oils are identical to our CJ-4/SM 15w-40s. I know Wakefield Canada up here offers enough Castrol 15w-40 HDEOs that there's a good chance something matches something else somewhere else.
15w40 PCMO in this part of the world is the popular grade like 10w30 is, or was in North America. 15w40 has really been the staple dating back to around the API SF/SG era. I've had a number of European vehicles that called exclusively for 15w40.
15w40 PCMO was typically SF/CD or SG/CF etc and not HDEO re-badged. Workshops would typically carry a 15w40 PCMO and 15w40 HDEO to cover almost everything.
15w40 PCMO today is now typically SN/CF, A3/B3 or A3/B4 rated and would be almost as popular for light diesels as it would be for petrol engines. Our light diesels tend to be 2L-3L 4 or 6 cylinder Asian and European offerings.
Most likely for that reason, ACEA PCMO is slowly replacing API HDEO for diesel passenger cars and LCV. The majority of workshops would use some sort of 5w30 SN, C3 (dexos 2) type lube for newer petrol and diesels with DPFs and a 15w40 A3/B4 for older or non DPF diesels. It also doubles as a thicker lube for older petrol cars.
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I run 15-40W Delo 400 LE in my gas motors because:
All the cars and trucks have over 100K miles and it quiets them down nicely, especially on cold start
It's readily available in gallons at Costco
I go at least 5K between changes (Oil & Filter)
The turbo's like it. I hate turbo failures
And - the price is better than any PCMO I'd consider - even at Wally World.
New engines don't get broken in on Delo. They usually get Chevron Supreme at start up... I don't run it until the motor has at least 100K because of viscosity. But about that time the bearings are getting loose enough that it's a good move
All the cars and trucks have over 100K miles and it quiets them down nicely, especially on cold start
It's readily available in gallons at Costco
I go at least 5K between changes (Oil & Filter)
The turbo's like it. I hate turbo failures
And - the price is better than any PCMO I'd consider - even at Wally World.
New engines don't get broken in on Delo. They usually get Chevron Supreme at start up... I don't run it until the motor has at least 100K because of viscosity. But about that time the bearings are getting loose enough that it's a good move
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Originally Posted By: supercity
15w40 PCMO was typically SF/CD or SG/CF etc and not HDEO re-badged. Workshops would typically carry a 15w40 PCMO and 15w40 HDEO to cover almost everything.
That was quite common back in the day here, but, obviously, we didn't have the ACEA specifications, and here, the recent API specs are more relevant. Here, I've never seen an A3/B3 type 15w-40, and now, they'll simply be CJ-4/SM (or CJ-4/SN) with any relevant ACEA E ratings, if any. With my mention of Castrol, we can see at least 3 versions of CJ-4/SM 15w-40 Castrol stuff on many shelves.
Finding even one dexos2 offering on a shelf up here would be a bit of an accomplishment.
15w40 PCMO was typically SF/CD or SG/CF etc and not HDEO re-badged. Workshops would typically carry a 15w40 PCMO and 15w40 HDEO to cover almost everything.
That was quite common back in the day here, but, obviously, we didn't have the ACEA specifications, and here, the recent API specs are more relevant. Here, I've never seen an A3/B3 type 15w-40, and now, they'll simply be CJ-4/SM (or CJ-4/SN) with any relevant ACEA E ratings, if any. With my mention of Castrol, we can see at least 3 versions of CJ-4/SM 15w-40 Castrol stuff on many shelves.
Finding even one dexos2 offering on a shelf up here would be a bit of an accomplishment.
Over here in Oz I can get two 15W-40 Castrol oils.
Castrol GTX 15W-40 PCMO - API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B3
Castrol RX Super 15W-40 HDEO - API CI-4+/SL, ACEA E7
At regular prices the HDEO is about $5 more than the PCMO for 5L, but during the sales they always reduce the PCMOs a lot more than the HDEOs, making the GTX about half the price of the RX.
I'm sure there is some economy of development for Castrol having two oils of the same weight, and the I'm sure the HDEO is the better oil. But at half price, I walked away with the GTX. I don't actually need high zinc in my newish car.
I just wish I knew all this years ago, when it would have helped me out on my old air cooled bikes. Still my bike was killed by an out of control car, not oil problems.
I so want to buy some Castrol RX, which would work fine in my car, but it's never on sale, and I already have three OCI ready to go. All great deals.
Castrol GTX 15W-40 PCMO - API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B3
Castrol RX Super 15W-40 HDEO - API CI-4+/SL, ACEA E7
At regular prices the HDEO is about $5 more than the PCMO for 5L, but during the sales they always reduce the PCMOs a lot more than the HDEOs, making the GTX about half the price of the RX.
I'm sure there is some economy of development for Castrol having two oils of the same weight, and the I'm sure the HDEO is the better oil. But at half price, I walked away with the GTX. I don't actually need high zinc in my newish car.
I just wish I knew all this years ago, when it would have helped me out on my old air cooled bikes. Still my bike was killed by an out of control car, not oil problems.
I so want to buy some Castrol RX, which would work fine in my car, but it's never on sale, and I already have three OCI ready to go. All great deals.
Ironically, our GTX 15w-40 is called "Castrol GTX Diesel 15w-40" and is CJ-4, but I'm not sure about the S spec; I suspect SM or SN. It also says B3, which is news to me, but no corresponding A specification, and their data sheet is MIA and I have no bottle in front of me, so I'm going but their little blurb.
For the commercial side of things, they have Tection Extra 15w-40 (CJ-4/SM plus builders' approvals but no ACEA) and Hypuron 15w-40 (data missing). They also used to have an Elixion 15w-40 on the shelf, but that seems to be history, now, except, perhaps, for older stock.
Of course, other viscosities are available, but that's what one sees for Castrol 15w-40 on a Walmart shelf here. The GTX Diesel is usually going for the same price as the regular GTX, and the regular GTX goes on sale on occasion (well, more than on occasion), so it's usually a good option.
For the commercial side of things, they have Tection Extra 15w-40 (CJ-4/SM plus builders' approvals but no ACEA) and Hypuron 15w-40 (data missing). They also used to have an Elixion 15w-40 on the shelf, but that seems to be history, now, except, perhaps, for older stock.
Of course, other viscosities are available, but that's what one sees for Castrol 15w-40 on a Walmart shelf here. The GTX Diesel is usually going for the same price as the regular GTX, and the regular GTX goes on sale on occasion (well, more than on occasion), so it's usually a good option.
Hi Garak,
We also get Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40, it's API CH-4/SJ. No ACEA.
But why would you buy this when the RX is API CI-4+/SL and E7 for only a few dollars more (for 5L).
I put the GTX diesel down to marketing here. People now buy diesel cars, and know the GTX brand, but don't understand "truck" oils. Probably a nice earner for them.
We also get Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40, it's API CH-4/SJ. No ACEA.
But why would you buy this when the RX is API CI-4+/SL and E7 for only a few dollars more (for 5L).
I put the GTX diesel down to marketing here. People now buy diesel cars, and know the GTX brand, but don't understand "truck" oils. Probably a nice earner for them.
I agree with your choice to purchase by price. For your situation, you're not getting anything extra for the extra dough. As for the marketing, I'm certain you're right. Even our GTX Diesel 15w-40 mentions light trucks and diesel cars. However, it has been many, many years since we've had a diesel car in North America that relied on the API diesel specifications, much less CJ-4. The Castrol GTX Diesel 15w-40 we get here is as commercially capable a lube as one could reasonably want, just like Delvac 1 works fine in my car.
Another thing that agrees with your marketing point is that even up here, GTX Diesel 15w-40 is usually on the shelf right alongside GTX 5w-30, 10w-30, and the other GTX PCMOs. For the guys with the trucks in your neck of the woods who are looking for builder approvals and CI-4+ or better and E7, yep, I bet they'll go for the RX. Here, if they're at Walmart, they'll walk by the GTX Diesel 15w-40 without even noticing it on their way to the Tection.
Another thing that agrees with your marketing point is that even up here, GTX Diesel 15w-40 is usually on the shelf right alongside GTX 5w-30, 10w-30, and the other GTX PCMOs. For the guys with the trucks in your neck of the woods who are looking for builder approvals and CI-4+ or better and E7, yep, I bet they'll go for the RX. Here, if they're at Walmart, they'll walk by the GTX Diesel 15w-40 without even noticing it on their way to the Tection.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Ironically, our GTX 15w-40 is called "Castrol GTX Diesel 15w-40" and is CJ-4, but I'm not sure about the S spec; I suspect SM or SN. It also says B3, which is news to me, but no corresponding A specification, and their data sheet is MIA and I have no bottle in front of me, so I'm going but their little blurb.
There is a data sheet. CJ-4/SN, no B3 claimed.
GTX Diesel
Ironically, our GTX 15w-40 is called "Castrol GTX Diesel 15w-40" and is CJ-4, but I'm not sure about the S spec; I suspect SM or SN. It also says B3, which is news to me, but no corresponding A specification, and their data sheet is MIA and I have no bottle in front of me, so I'm going but their little blurb.
There is a data sheet. CJ-4/SN, no B3 claimed.
GTX Diesel
Yep, that's the U.S. one though, and it is conceivable, but unlikely, that there could be a specification difference between Canada and the U.S. Usually, they have a separate sheet for each country, with both being identical, other than the mailing address.
I do, however, suspect the sheet you provided is correct and not the orphaned B3 blurb on the web page.
I do, however, suspect the sheet you provided is correct and not the orphaned B3 blurb on the web page.
So out of all of this, has there been a consensus on which of the HDEO's is actually best for moderate performance flat tappet engines? Say with 350# of spring pressure over the nose on a flat tappet cam?
It's one thing to find a source of VR1 for engine/cam break-in. But it's fairly rare to find it at inexpensive prices and in volume for ongoing maintenance.
Most of these "performance" flat tappet motors have clearanced bearings and such and can benefit from viscosity and shear stability. And the ones that see track time will likely be spinning 6,500 which is a lot higher than diesel engines go...
I get the detergent vs ZDDP argument. I don't get a sense that anyone has answered the basic question. Any modern lube will work for a Ford flathead. How about track cars that are restricted to flat tappet cams by rules? Some of these are seeing 8,000 RPM on the straights...
I've had decent service from Delo400 and have not seen engine failures from Delo400LE (yet). But, I'd still like some "field observations" from guys running these oils in their dirt trackers
I've made the argument for years that fleet operators that buy these HDEO fleet oils and run them in everything, often have enough lawyer power to hurt a refiner if these oils did not perform well in mixed use ... Some of these operators have huge fleets and buy oil in truck tanker loads. They'd switch in a heart beat if they could see $$ in the bottom line at the end of the year. And I don't see them switching ...
We have fire departments that run mixed fleets and they beat on their motors as in full red-line from dead cold in 30 seconds in a Code 3 response many times a week. Most use HDEO's in their vehicle service...
It's one thing to find a source of VR1 for engine/cam break-in. But it's fairly rare to find it at inexpensive prices and in volume for ongoing maintenance.
Most of these "performance" flat tappet motors have clearanced bearings and such and can benefit from viscosity and shear stability. And the ones that see track time will likely be spinning 6,500 which is a lot higher than diesel engines go...
I get the detergent vs ZDDP argument. I don't get a sense that anyone has answered the basic question. Any modern lube will work for a Ford flathead. How about track cars that are restricted to flat tappet cams by rules? Some of these are seeing 8,000 RPM on the straights...
I've had decent service from Delo400 and have not seen engine failures from Delo400LE (yet). But, I'd still like some "field observations" from guys running these oils in their dirt trackers
I've made the argument for years that fleet operators that buy these HDEO fleet oils and run them in everything, often have enough lawyer power to hurt a refiner if these oils did not perform well in mixed use ... Some of these operators have huge fleets and buy oil in truck tanker loads. They'd switch in a heart beat if they could see $$ in the bottom line at the end of the year. And I don't see them switching ...
We have fire departments that run mixed fleets and they beat on their motors as in full red-line from dead cold in 30 seconds in a Code 3 response many times a week. Most use HDEO's in their vehicle service...
Originally Posted By: SR5
Bump !
This thread is a recent find for me, and a good read.
A few links if anybody is interested in zinc.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/images/PENR0138_Penrite_Zinc Tech Bulletin.pdf
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf
Hi BrocLuno,
It sounds like Richard Widman is happy to use either CI or CJ HDEO, and he has studied this a lot. See his link above.
Garak can only get CJ, I can only get CI (easily), yet neither of us seem worried.
But read the Penrite link (or look up the ACEA standards) and it looks like a Euro ACEA A3/B3/B4 oil (or similar) is required to have zinc/ash in the 1000 to 1200 ppm range. And from memory, it needs to have a TBN of 8 (A3/B3) to 10 (A3/B4) and pass a shear test too (that API SN oils don't need to pass). A3/B3//B4 oils also need a high HTHS of 3.5 or more.
I was exploring HDEOs to widen my options, and to explore an area of oils I had little knowledge in. However on the day I bought a A3/B3 PCMO for half the price of a HDEO. Simply due to what was on sale. If a CI or CJ HDEO was cheaper, then I would have gotten the cheaper HDEO on the day.
I would be happy with CI or CJ or A3/B3 or A3/B4.
Bump !
This thread is a recent find for me, and a good read.
A few links if anybody is interested in zinc.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/images/PENR0138_Penrite_Zinc Tech Bulletin.pdf
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf
Hi BrocLuno,
It sounds like Richard Widman is happy to use either CI or CJ HDEO, and he has studied this a lot. See his link above.
Garak can only get CJ, I can only get CI (easily), yet neither of us seem worried.
But read the Penrite link (or look up the ACEA standards) and it looks like a Euro ACEA A3/B3/B4 oil (or similar) is required to have zinc/ash in the 1000 to 1200 ppm range. And from memory, it needs to have a TBN of 8 (A3/B3) to 10 (A3/B4) and pass a shear test too (that API SN oils don't need to pass). A3/B3//B4 oils also need a high HTHS of 3.5 or more.
I was exploring HDEOs to widen my options, and to explore an area of oils I had little knowledge in. However on the day I bought a A3/B3 PCMO for half the price of a HDEO. Simply due to what was on sale. If a CI or CJ HDEO was cheaper, then I would have gotten the cheaper HDEO on the day.
I would be happy with CI or CJ or A3/B3 or A3/B4.
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Sometimes, too, one has to have a bit of a relationship with a speed shop. Sometimes, they'll have something like VR-1 in a sensible viscosity (i.e. their 10w-30) at a reasonable price. There are way, way too many examples out there of high ZDDP oils (marketing on fear) that are astronomically priced. I doubt I'd even consider buying anything more expensive than Royal Purple HPS, and even that's pushing it.
For what Joe Gibbs wants, two oil changes exceed the value of a cam and lifter job.
For what Joe Gibbs wants, two oil changes exceed the value of a cam and lifter job.
Yep, if I was very concerned, we get a Semi-Synthetic Valvoline VR-1 10W40 that is high zinc and suitable for general road use (not just a short OCI track oil). The price is quite reasonable.
The weird thing here is that VR-1 is cheaper at Walmart than comparable conventional oils. The Walmart people up here are terribly confused.
No VR-1 in Wal-Mart around here, or I'd be all over it ...
But, I just ran across this and I think it might do nicely for the flat tappet crowd
Since it's a "tractor oil" it's exempt from the CARB and EPA guidelines for over-the-road vehicles
http://www.pqiadata.org/Travellers15...m_medium=email
Look over the add pack. Lots of what some of us are looking for... Easily available at the local Tractor Supply store as it's their house brand
I think it might be a decent break-in oil for the flat tappet crowd, me included as long as the motor was clearanced for 15-40 (which many of mine are...).
But, I just ran across this and I think it might do nicely for the flat tappet crowd
Since it's a "tractor oil" it's exempt from the CARB and EPA guidelines for over-the-road vehicles
http://www.pqiadata.org/Travellers15...m_medium=email
Look over the add pack. Lots of what some of us are looking for... Easily available at the local Tractor Supply store as it's their house brand
I think it might be a decent break-in oil for the flat tappet crowd, me included as long as the motor was clearanced for 15-40 (which many of mine are...).
Your link isn't working. But, I know of which oil you speak. In any case, I'm not sure what you mean by exempt from CARB and EPA guidelines. Neither of those organizations regulate motor oil.
That oil is regulated by the API, just the same as the 5w-20 PCMO you find on the shelf. It's an HDEO, though, which meets CJ-4 guidelines, rather than SN and GF-5 guidelines, like a PCMO would. In any case, I'm sure it would be fine, and the usual concern is at break in, in any event.
That oil is regulated by the API, just the same as the 5w-20 PCMO you find on the shelf. It's an HDEO, though, which meets CJ-4 guidelines, rather than SN and GF-5 guidelines, like a PCMO would. In any case, I'm sure it would be fine, and the usual concern is at break in, in any event.
Try this link:
http://www.pqiadata.org/Travellers15W40.html?utm_source=July+23%2C+2015&utm_campaign=7%2F24%2F2015&utm_medium=email
Well that does not come up as a hot link??? Anyway, I was pretty sure it was EPA's reduction in metals that was driving all the refiners to reduce their add pack's... If not, why and who?
http://www.pqiadata.org/Travellers15W40.html?utm_source=July+23%2C+2015&utm_campaign=7%2F24%2F2015&utm_medium=email
Well that does not come up as a hot link??? Anyway, I was pretty sure it was EPA's reduction in metals that was driving all the refiners to reduce their add pack's... If not, why and who?
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Yep, that's the one I was looking at. In any event, formulation of a lubricant involves considering all kinds of different objectives, and they don't always coincide. The EPA doesn't seem terribly concerned about phosphorous content in oils, per se. However, automakers are required to guarantee their emissions systems for fairly lengthy terms, and higher phosphorous oils (or higher SAPS, or higher SA, or whatever the case may be, given the type of emissions system) can be problematic for catalytic converters. So, lower phosphorous oils helped address this, and the manufacturers wanted that more than the EPA did, since the manufacturers have to underwrite their warranties. The EPA doesn't do it for them.
Concerns about different emissions systems target a few other compounds in oils, and have different oil specifications. Look at the ACEA C type oils. Also, different fuels and different fuel specifications matter. HDEO specifications evolved in no small part due to the introduction of ULSD. TBN actually crept down a bit in PCMOs and HDEOs for a time period, but the big names are up there, meeting ACEA specifications in both A/B and E sequences. Of course, the ACEA C sequences are different, and we see different additive packages.
Note that there are plenty of non-ILSAC oils and non-API oils out there that do have plenty of phosphorous. There are also low phosphorous oils specifications that have nothing to do with anything in North America whatsoever, such as ACEA E6, which may or may not coincide with an API CJ-4 certification.
Concerns about different emissions systems target a few other compounds in oils, and have different oil specifications. Look at the ACEA C type oils. Also, different fuels and different fuel specifications matter. HDEO specifications evolved in no small part due to the introduction of ULSD. TBN actually crept down a bit in PCMOs and HDEOs for a time period, but the big names are up there, meeting ACEA specifications in both A/B and E sequences. Of course, the ACEA C sequences are different, and we see different additive packages.
Note that there are plenty of non-ILSAC oils and non-API oils out there that do have plenty of phosphorous. There are also low phosphorous oils specifications that have nothing to do with anything in North America whatsoever, such as ACEA E6, which may or may not coincide with an API CJ-4 certification.
I just read this entire thread and still confused on why exactly higher levels of ZDDP in HDEO oils would potentially increase wear in gas engines? Is it because a different type of ZDDP is used HDEO oils, than say the type of ZDDP that is used in Defy, or M1 0W-40?
I have used HDEO's in my LX450 since it hit 120K either in 15W-40 or 5W-40 variety. Could this have possibly increased wear numbers in my LX450 engine, than if I had just used a regular HM 5W-30 or 10w-40 PCMO?
I have used HDEO's in my LX450 since it hit 120K either in 15W-40 or 5W-40 variety. Could this have possibly increased wear numbers in my LX450 engine, than if I had just used a regular HM 5W-30 or 10w-40 PCMO?
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