dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: salesrep
3-5% is actually concervative if you also switch out the differentials and tranny. We have been seeing 4-8% mpg gains in the big rigs.
For the big rigs, that might be true. That claim of 4-8% might be true if moving from a poorly maintained vehicle with marginal fluids to a super-duper maintained state of tune with premium lubes, but it's difficult to achieve in the real world for the rest of us.
Further, this isn't a big rig forum overall, and most people here are not in a situation to achieve such a huge gain because they probably are already (nearly) maxed out on efficieny anyway. Am I to believe that by just switching from dino to syn, I going to see a 6% average return? I already run a dino 10w-30 HDEO in my truck, and 5w-20 in my car. Are synthetics that good as to produce such a shift? I doubt it.
The original claim was 3-5%. I asked for some proof, and then got a claim of 4-8% for big rigs. That wasn't the "proof" I was seeking.
Also, keep in mind some vehicles come with synthetics from the OEM. My 2006 Dmax truck came with 75w-90 syn in the rear and the Allisons made in Indy come with TES-295 in them. Even the Allisons from Baltimore have come with DEX VI (a low vis fluid) since 2006. That means that the entire "3-5%" claim must come from the engine oil switch. Ford uses syns and semisyns in their OEM stuff as well as thinner fluids, too. So does Chrysler.
Nearly all the large market lube makers like Shell, Castrol, Mobil etc claim 1-3% when going from a dino to syn, but they ALSO are typically including a move to a lighter grade. I believe the grade shift has much more to do with mileage gains than does a base stock shift. I SERIOUSLY doubt a syn 40 grade is going to be that more efficient than a dino 40 grade just upon the "slippery factor" alone.
This reminds me of the guy that had to stop every hundred miles and siphon fuel out of his gas tank. He added up all the "claims" of fuel economy increases stated on a government website many years ago and figured his vehicle became so fuel efficient that it was producing, rather than consuming, fuel. You can recall all the rhetoric if you think back far enough: X% for a clean air filter, X% for airing up the tires, X% for fresh lubes, X% for keeping the exterior clean (less drag), X% for fresh spark plugs and wires, etc etc etc.
I would ask to see the proof to convince me otherwise because I don't see the typical BITOG guy or gal getting 5-7% increase, because they probably are already maxing out everything; it's their nature. Again, I'm sure there are some rare cases where it might be shown, but the vast average is not anywhere near that kind of a fuel economy increase by just switching to synthetics, of any brand.
For reference:
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int.../0-999/1854.pdf shows a move from 15w-40 dino to 5w-30 syn in HDEO. 4% "max" is just that; it's not an average. It's under ideal conditions.
http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/products/t5/ shows Rotella semi-syn gaining 1.6% when moving from a dino to semi, but there is ALSO the grade shift from 40 grade to 30 grade.
http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/products/t6/ here Shell claims "fuel economy" gains with T6 when contrasted to dino 15w-40, but it must be so darn small that they don't define the savings. It's probably there, but it's nowhere near 5%. Probably much more like less than 1%; if it were a large difference, they'd advertise it!
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English-LCW/hea...1-esp-5w40.aspx Here Delvac 1 is listed for a 1% gain, but it doesn't state what it was compared to. Note their asterisk comment "depends upon ... current engine oil viscosity."
http://www.valvoline.com/products/commercial-industrial-products/oem-endorsed-products/11 Valvoline is up to 3% for class 8 trucks, and they have an asterisk, but I cannot locate the qualifying statement. Still a "3% maximum improvement" is a high limit, and NOT the average. The "real" improvement is probably 1-2% and we have no idea what grades they are comparing and contrasting. Still, 3% max is right in line with my claims in my post above, and nowhere near the 5% others claim.
http://www.deloperformance.com/products/engine-oils.aspx#product4 note that Delo claims fuel savings from grade selection but NOT from base stock moves. However, in this report, there is a VERY interesting claim of the grade versus base stock: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read...my-improvements Here is the Delo 10w-30 grade oil showing 1% over a 15w-40. NOTE that the lighter grade dino actually shows an improvement over the 5w-40 syn!!!!!! That's interesting, is it not? They are showing the lighter grade to be more important to fuel savings than the syn!
http://www.schaefferoil.com/supreme-9000-engine-oil.html and this http://www.schaefferoil.com/energy-savings-calculator.html don't even have quantified claims for economy savings. I see words that claim savings, but I don't see any factual claims specifically directing me to what "savings" there is. The "energy savings calculator" does not even have a link that I can find that helps me calcuate the savings ... (tried on 11-17-11 @ 0730 EST; perhaps the site was down? No, I doubt it because every other link on the Shaeffer site was working). Just what "calculator" am I supposed to see here?
Now, once again I find myself in a topic where people are going to say I'm a "synthetic oil basher". Folks, that's just not true. I am, in fact, a synthetic lube user. There are certain situations that make sense in my fleet where I see the benefits to using synthetics. But, I have a clear, open-minded understanding of both the benefits and limitations of synthetics. I do NOT accept hype and rhetoric as the gospel.
Here's what I'd believe as pratical. Moving from a moderately maintained vehicle with thicker dino fluids everywhere, to a well maintained state including thinner synthetics in the engine, tranny and diff, PERHAPS MAYBE could net 5%. That's taking the entire vehicle into account.
Salesrep, your original statement was "3-5% fuel economy" gains. JMO claimed 7% gain by just going to 5w-30 syn. Frankly gentlemen, I SERIOUSLY doubt that. This thread was NOT about a move from all thick dino fluids (eng, tranny, diff). This thread was about Delo 10w-30 to Shaeffers 10w-30. I doubt there would be 0.5% economy gain going from a dino to a semi-syn in that regard. While your comments of "3-5%" might be true, they also have to be viewed in context. And in this context, your comments are not correct at all.
I'm not calling you two out to be rude or start a fight, but I find your claims bogus, to be frank.
The two greatest contributors to fuel economy gains are:
1) driving style
2) lube grade
In that order.
3-5% is actually concervative if you also switch out the differentials and tranny. We have been seeing 4-8% mpg gains in the big rigs.
For the big rigs, that might be true. That claim of 4-8% might be true if moving from a poorly maintained vehicle with marginal fluids to a super-duper maintained state of tune with premium lubes, but it's difficult to achieve in the real world for the rest of us.
Further, this isn't a big rig forum overall, and most people here are not in a situation to achieve such a huge gain because they probably are already (nearly) maxed out on efficieny anyway. Am I to believe that by just switching from dino to syn, I going to see a 6% average return? I already run a dino 10w-30 HDEO in my truck, and 5w-20 in my car. Are synthetics that good as to produce such a shift? I doubt it.
The original claim was 3-5%. I asked for some proof, and then got a claim of 4-8% for big rigs. That wasn't the "proof" I was seeking.
Also, keep in mind some vehicles come with synthetics from the OEM. My 2006 Dmax truck came with 75w-90 syn in the rear and the Allisons made in Indy come with TES-295 in them. Even the Allisons from Baltimore have come with DEX VI (a low vis fluid) since 2006. That means that the entire "3-5%" claim must come from the engine oil switch. Ford uses syns and semisyns in their OEM stuff as well as thinner fluids, too. So does Chrysler.
Nearly all the large market lube makers like Shell, Castrol, Mobil etc claim 1-3% when going from a dino to syn, but they ALSO are typically including a move to a lighter grade. I believe the grade shift has much more to do with mileage gains than does a base stock shift. I SERIOUSLY doubt a syn 40 grade is going to be that more efficient than a dino 40 grade just upon the "slippery factor" alone.
This reminds me of the guy that had to stop every hundred miles and siphon fuel out of his gas tank. He added up all the "claims" of fuel economy increases stated on a government website many years ago and figured his vehicle became so fuel efficient that it was producing, rather than consuming, fuel. You can recall all the rhetoric if you think back far enough: X% for a clean air filter, X% for airing up the tires, X% for fresh lubes, X% for keeping the exterior clean (less drag), X% for fresh spark plugs and wires, etc etc etc.
I would ask to see the proof to convince me otherwise because I don't see the typical BITOG guy or gal getting 5-7% increase, because they probably are already maxing out everything; it's their nature. Again, I'm sure there are some rare cases where it might be shown, but the vast average is not anywhere near that kind of a fuel economy increase by just switching to synthetics, of any brand.
For reference:
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int.../0-999/1854.pdf shows a move from 15w-40 dino to 5w-30 syn in HDEO. 4% "max" is just that; it's not an average. It's under ideal conditions.
http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/products/t5/ shows Rotella semi-syn gaining 1.6% when moving from a dino to semi, but there is ALSO the grade shift from 40 grade to 30 grade.
http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/products/t6/ here Shell claims "fuel economy" gains with T6 when contrasted to dino 15w-40, but it must be so darn small that they don't define the savings. It's probably there, but it's nowhere near 5%. Probably much more like less than 1%; if it were a large difference, they'd advertise it!
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English-LCW/hea...1-esp-5w40.aspx Here Delvac 1 is listed for a 1% gain, but it doesn't state what it was compared to. Note their asterisk comment "depends upon ... current engine oil viscosity."
http://www.valvoline.com/products/commercial-industrial-products/oem-endorsed-products/11 Valvoline is up to 3% for class 8 trucks, and they have an asterisk, but I cannot locate the qualifying statement. Still a "3% maximum improvement" is a high limit, and NOT the average. The "real" improvement is probably 1-2% and we have no idea what grades they are comparing and contrasting. Still, 3% max is right in line with my claims in my post above, and nowhere near the 5% others claim.
http://www.deloperformance.com/products/engine-oils.aspx#product4 note that Delo claims fuel savings from grade selection but NOT from base stock moves. However, in this report, there is a VERY interesting claim of the grade versus base stock: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read...my-improvements Here is the Delo 10w-30 grade oil showing 1% over a 15w-40. NOTE that the lighter grade dino actually shows an improvement over the 5w-40 syn!!!!!! That's interesting, is it not? They are showing the lighter grade to be more important to fuel savings than the syn!
http://www.schaefferoil.com/supreme-9000-engine-oil.html and this http://www.schaefferoil.com/energy-savings-calculator.html don't even have quantified claims for economy savings. I see words that claim savings, but I don't see any factual claims specifically directing me to what "savings" there is. The "energy savings calculator" does not even have a link that I can find that helps me calcuate the savings ... (tried on 11-17-11 @ 0730 EST; perhaps the site was down? No, I doubt it because every other link on the Shaeffer site was working). Just what "calculator" am I supposed to see here?
Now, once again I find myself in a topic where people are going to say I'm a "synthetic oil basher". Folks, that's just not true. I am, in fact, a synthetic lube user. There are certain situations that make sense in my fleet where I see the benefits to using synthetics. But, I have a clear, open-minded understanding of both the benefits and limitations of synthetics. I do NOT accept hype and rhetoric as the gospel.
Here's what I'd believe as pratical. Moving from a moderately maintained vehicle with thicker dino fluids everywhere, to a well maintained state including thinner synthetics in the engine, tranny and diff, PERHAPS MAYBE could net 5%. That's taking the entire vehicle into account.
Salesrep, your original statement was "3-5% fuel economy" gains. JMO claimed 7% gain by just going to 5w-30 syn. Frankly gentlemen, I SERIOUSLY doubt that. This thread was NOT about a move from all thick dino fluids (eng, tranny, diff). This thread was about Delo 10w-30 to Shaeffers 10w-30. I doubt there would be 0.5% economy gain going from a dino to a semi-syn in that regard. While your comments of "3-5%" might be true, they also have to be viewed in context. And in this context, your comments are not correct at all.
I'm not calling you two out to be rude or start a fight, but I find your claims bogus, to be frank.
The two greatest contributors to fuel economy gains are:
1) driving style
2) lube grade
In that order.
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