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Technology will be our downfall unfortunately as I've said before. Everyday the need for a human employee decreases as technology progresses.
Champion Spark plugs: Now made in India!
- Thread starter Chris142
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: DdDd
I would like to know which one of you here would like to work ten hour days on a sparkplug assembly line.
Also how many people here look forward to that future for their children?
Globalization isn't all bad. The idea is the lousy stuff other countries make for us and we focus on the higher value.
Now that our educational system can't seem to turn out candidates qualified for higher end work in sufficient quantities is another problem for another conversation altogether!
The idea that education is this universal panacea that can overcome individual barriers seems naive. That's why there's a bell curve. Some people aren't born to be Engineers, Doctors or Mathematicians. Some aren't born to manage or troubleshoot electronics. Some people are just really good at doing menial work and quite happy to have a purpose in doing so.
You probably went to school with some of these people, I know I did. No matter how much help they got to get through, they were never going to be scientists or English majors, they just wanted to get their time in so that they could get out. These are the folks that were quite happy landing a job on the GM assembly line putting on door panels or sweeping floors at your local high school.
The problem with this "new world" is that it doesn't leave room for these folk, but our push for "high end" work doesn't make them magically disappear either. They then end up unemployed, sometimes desperate, wanting to provide food and shelter for their family. This was something they were readily able to do before in the "old world" before we made it "better".
I certainly wouldn't call putting a good portion of our population on food stamps and welfare progress
To be placed in a position of financial burden on the rest of us because we wanted to claim some contrived position of advancement in the name of Globalization and thus eliminating their ability to provide for themselves. Not because they didn't want to or because they were unable, but because we decided for them that we were "better" than that.
I would like to know which one of you here would like to work ten hour days on a sparkplug assembly line.
Also how many people here look forward to that future for their children?
Globalization isn't all bad. The idea is the lousy stuff other countries make for us and we focus on the higher value.
Now that our educational system can't seem to turn out candidates qualified for higher end work in sufficient quantities is another problem for another conversation altogether!
The idea that education is this universal panacea that can overcome individual barriers seems naive. That's why there's a bell curve. Some people aren't born to be Engineers, Doctors or Mathematicians. Some aren't born to manage or troubleshoot electronics. Some people are just really good at doing menial work and quite happy to have a purpose in doing so.
You probably went to school with some of these people, I know I did. No matter how much help they got to get through, they were never going to be scientists or English majors, they just wanted to get their time in so that they could get out. These are the folks that were quite happy landing a job on the GM assembly line putting on door panels or sweeping floors at your local high school.
The problem with this "new world" is that it doesn't leave room for these folk, but our push for "high end" work doesn't make them magically disappear either. They then end up unemployed, sometimes desperate, wanting to provide food and shelter for their family. This was something they were readily able to do before in the "old world" before we made it "better".
I certainly wouldn't call putting a good portion of our population on food stamps and welfare progress
Originally Posted By: Jimzz
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
A few decades from now the only thing US will manufacture is rubber dog c r a p. Things will get ugly.
Scott
Nope; most stuff will return to the US as time goes on. The difference is it will be machines making it here, not people.
A lot of manufacturing is returning to the US but its because machines have progressed enough to make things on their own for the most part.
I hope you’re right, but I watched the video of them making spark plugs in India and believe me, there were no humans on the assembly line. Think how cheap the land was for the factory and how cheap is was to assemble the factory.
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
A few decades from now the only thing US will manufacture is rubber dog c r a p. Things will get ugly.
Scott
Nope; most stuff will return to the US as time goes on. The difference is it will be machines making it here, not people.
A lot of manufacturing is returning to the US but its because machines have progressed enough to make things on their own for the most part.
I hope you’re right, but I watched the video of them making spark plugs in India and believe me, there were no humans on the assembly line. Think how cheap the land was for the factory and how cheap is was to assemble the factory.
Originally Posted By: DdDd
I would like to know which one of you here would like to work ten hour days on a sparkplug assembly line.
Also how many people here look forward to that future for their children?
Globalization isn't all bad. The idea is the lousy stuff other countries make for us and we focus on the higher value.
Now that our educational system can't seem to turn out candidates qualified for higher end work in sufficient quantities is another problem for another conversation altogether!
OMG DdDd. You are imagining a sweatshop operation. No. It’s completely robotic.
SF
I would like to know which one of you here would like to work ten hour days on a sparkplug assembly line.
Also how many people here look forward to that future for their children?
Globalization isn't all bad. The idea is the lousy stuff other countries make for us and we focus on the higher value.
Now that our educational system can't seem to turn out candidates qualified for higher end work in sufficient quantities is another problem for another conversation altogether!
OMG DdDd. You are imagining a sweatshop operation. No. It’s completely robotic.
SF
RE: OVERKILL
So, what is your solution or the answer to the very real problem that you have outlined? I am seriously asking this question.
The problem goes much further than globalization. May be we should call it "smart machinization"?
One thing which does give me little solace that for hundreds of years, we have been transitioning where everybody but few toiled on the field to provide the food to today where insignificant number of people are employed in agriculture. Somehow or other we were able to eventually move the employment from predominantly agricultural to predominantly industrial to predominantly digital etc.
Is there specific reason that this trend will now break?
So, what is your solution or the answer to the very real problem that you have outlined? I am seriously asking this question.
The problem goes much further than globalization. May be we should call it "smart machinization"?
One thing which does give me little solace that for hundreds of years, we have been transitioning where everybody but few toiled on the field to provide the food to today where insignificant number of people are employed in agriculture. Somehow or other we were able to eventually move the employment from predominantly agricultural to predominantly industrial to predominantly digital etc.
Is there specific reason that this trend will now break?
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Threw some OE plugs at a customers Jeep today. I was surprised to see that they were made in India.
Did Champion pass the savings on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Threw some OE plugs at a customers Jeep today. I was surprised to see that they were made in India.
Did Champion pass the savings on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Threw some OE plugs at a customers Jeep today. I was surprised to see that they were made in India.
Did Champion pass the savings on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Does Apple pass on any savings from their $1,000 "Made in China" iPhone X, on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Threw some OE plugs at a customers Jeep today. I was surprised to see that they were made in India.
Did Champion pass the savings on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Does Apple pass on any savings from their $1,000 "Made in China" iPhone X, on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Threw some OE plugs at a customers Jeep today. I was surprised to see that they were made in India.
Did Champion pass the savings on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Does Apple pass on any savings from their $1,000 "Made in China" iPhone X, on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
How do you know they didn't?
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Threw some OE plugs at a customers Jeep today. I was surprised to see that they were made in India.
Did Champion pass the savings on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
Does Apple pass on any savings from their $1,000 "Made in China" iPhone X, on to the consumer?
I didn't think so.
How do you know they didn't?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Vikas
RE: OVERKILL
So, what is your solution or the answer to the very real problem that you have outlined? I am seriously asking this question.
The problem goes much further than globalization. May be we should call it "smart machinization"?
One thing which does give me little solace that for hundreds of years, we have been transitioning where everybody but few toiled on the field to provide the food to today where insignificant number of people are employed in agriculture. Somehow or other we were able to eventually move the employment from predominantly agricultural to predominantly industrial to predominantly digital etc.
Is there specific reason that this trend will now break?
I don't have a solution, I'm simply pointing out the problem.
As you've illustrated, progress has historically simply moved those qualified for menial tasks to other menial tasks. From picking fields to factory floors, this was an upgrade, and GM paid/pays their line workers quite well for what is essentially unskilled labour.
The difference this time around with Globalization is that with the shift from labour-intensive industrial to digital, those positions aren't being replaced in the same location like they were before. They are instead being moved to another country or continent.
When you create a pool of frustrated people who want to work and can't, they become unpredictable. Some may lash out, others may simply give up and live off the system, others may turn to crime. You remove a man's purpose, no matter how basic that purpose seems, you fuel frustration and discontent.
The Socialist solution to this seems to be the philosophy of a basic minimum income, funded through tax dollars. However shifting a growing pool of unemployed onto the taxpayer dime, a bill footed by those who remain employed, will breed resentment and anger. It will also do nothing to satisfy the drive of those who need to "do something" to feel useful. With that will come increased incidents of depression and suicide.
Automation is a double-edged sword. If it becomes cheaper than Chinese labour, how many millions of people there will rapidly become unemployed? We keep moving labour around to the cheapest market, but those markets are rapidly becoming less cheap, which in turn fuels the drive for automation which brings it far fewer employment opportunities.
There can only be so many Walmart greeters. Machines can stock shelves and clean floors.
RE: OVERKILL
So, what is your solution or the answer to the very real problem that you have outlined? I am seriously asking this question.
The problem goes much further than globalization. May be we should call it "smart machinization"?
One thing which does give me little solace that for hundreds of years, we have been transitioning where everybody but few toiled on the field to provide the food to today where insignificant number of people are employed in agriculture. Somehow or other we were able to eventually move the employment from predominantly agricultural to predominantly industrial to predominantly digital etc.
Is there specific reason that this trend will now break?
I don't have a solution, I'm simply pointing out the problem.
As you've illustrated, progress has historically simply moved those qualified for menial tasks to other menial tasks. From picking fields to factory floors, this was an upgrade, and GM paid/pays their line workers quite well for what is essentially unskilled labour.
The difference this time around with Globalization is that with the shift from labour-intensive industrial to digital, those positions aren't being replaced in the same location like they were before. They are instead being moved to another country or continent.
When you create a pool of frustrated people who want to work and can't, they become unpredictable. Some may lash out, others may simply give up and live off the system, others may turn to crime. You remove a man's purpose, no matter how basic that purpose seems, you fuel frustration and discontent.
The Socialist solution to this seems to be the philosophy of a basic minimum income, funded through tax dollars. However shifting a growing pool of unemployed onto the taxpayer dime, a bill footed by those who remain employed, will breed resentment and anger. It will also do nothing to satisfy the drive of those who need to "do something" to feel useful. With that will come increased incidents of depression and suicide.
Automation is a double-edged sword. If it becomes cheaper than Chinese labour, how many millions of people there will rapidly become unemployed? We keep moving labour around to the cheapest market, but those markets are rapidly becoming less cheap, which in turn fuels the drive for automation which brings it far fewer employment opportunities.
There can only be so many Walmart greeters. Machines can stock shelves and clean floors.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
When you create a pool of frustrated people who want to work and can't, they become unpredictable. Some may lash out, others may simply give up and live off the system, others may turn to crime. You remove a man's purpose, no matter how basic that purpose seems, you fuel frustration and discontent.
The Socialist solution to this seems to be the philosophy of a basic minimum income, funded through tax dollars. However shifting a growing pool of unemployed onto the taxpayer dime, a bill footed by those who remain employed, will breed resentment and anger. It will also do nothing to satisfy the drive of those who need to "do something" to feel useful. With that will come increased incidents of depression and suicide.
Automation is a double-edged sword. If it becomes cheaper than Chinese labour, how many millions of people there will rapidly become unemployed? We keep moving labour around to the cheapest market, but those markets are rapidly becoming less cheap, which in turn fuels the drive for automation which brings it far fewer employment opportunities.
There can only be so many Walmart greeters. Machines can stock shelves and clean floors.
We can only shift so much to other countries - I see clothes are now being made in Cambodia, Vietnam and Sri Lanka but it will be a matter of time before they get swamped and of course those governments are known for corruption. Some countries in Africa are now seeing the Chinese contract clothing/shoe manufacturers move there for cheap labor, and of course that industry is resistant to automation.
I agree with the idea of a UBI, but you bring up what is the biggest resistance piece of that. Most Americans believe in the idea of individual freedom and that a 'guvmint handout is evil. But right now in America, you have people in the rust belt who are collecting disability or welfare in the form of SNAP(food stamps) or other programs. Drug addiction and death rates are high in those areas, and yet they feel that things can turn around with the current administration. The image of the urban "welfare queen" is still etched in many people's minds. In that part of the country, you identified with the factories and mines and want to work with your hands, not pushing paper or code. Somethings we can be much better off without like coal but the biggest obstacle is keeping those workers trained and relevant for whatever comes next.
At the risk of sounding political, I don't mind seeing my tax dollars go towards a social safety net and there needs to be strong checks and balances on automation, now with the rise of AI which can be a force for good or bad.
When you create a pool of frustrated people who want to work and can't, they become unpredictable. Some may lash out, others may simply give up and live off the system, others may turn to crime. You remove a man's purpose, no matter how basic that purpose seems, you fuel frustration and discontent.
The Socialist solution to this seems to be the philosophy of a basic minimum income, funded through tax dollars. However shifting a growing pool of unemployed onto the taxpayer dime, a bill footed by those who remain employed, will breed resentment and anger. It will also do nothing to satisfy the drive of those who need to "do something" to feel useful. With that will come increased incidents of depression and suicide.
Automation is a double-edged sword. If it becomes cheaper than Chinese labour, how many millions of people there will rapidly become unemployed? We keep moving labour around to the cheapest market, but those markets are rapidly becoming less cheap, which in turn fuels the drive for automation which brings it far fewer employment opportunities.
There can only be so many Walmart greeters. Machines can stock shelves and clean floors.
We can only shift so much to other countries - I see clothes are now being made in Cambodia, Vietnam and Sri Lanka but it will be a matter of time before they get swamped and of course those governments are known for corruption. Some countries in Africa are now seeing the Chinese contract clothing/shoe manufacturers move there for cheap labor, and of course that industry is resistant to automation.
I agree with the idea of a UBI, but you bring up what is the biggest resistance piece of that. Most Americans believe in the idea of individual freedom and that a 'guvmint handout is evil. But right now in America, you have people in the rust belt who are collecting disability or welfare in the form of SNAP(food stamps) or other programs. Drug addiction and death rates are high in those areas, and yet they feel that things can turn around with the current administration. The image of the urban "welfare queen" is still etched in many people's minds. In that part of the country, you identified with the factories and mines and want to work with your hands, not pushing paper or code. Somethings we can be much better off without like coal but the biggest obstacle is keeping those workers trained and relevant for whatever comes next.
At the risk of sounding political, I don't mind seeing my tax dollars go towards a social safety net and there needs to be strong checks and balances on automation, now with the rise of AI which can be a force for good or bad.
The Walmart greeter will eventually be a robot. I'm thinking Germany is coping better than the US and Canada. They have an active system where they try steer their students to different vocations depending on their aptitude and they have a ton of manufacturing. Also, I honestly think we are too willing to purchase foreign made items. Up here in Canada our auto industry is integrated with the U.S. We have lots of two way cross border deals going on and hopefully there will be more.
But I noticed a ton of Audi's on our roads. As far as I know Audi does not manufacture in either Canada or the US. I'd like to know how much money we are sending to Germany just by purchasing Audi's. The same goes for way too much stuff.
Maybe some day we'll learn.
SF
But I noticed a ton of Audi's on our roads. As far as I know Audi does not manufacture in either Canada or the US. I'd like to know how much money we are sending to Germany just by purchasing Audi's. The same goes for way too much stuff.
Maybe some day we'll learn.
SF
Recently, I read about machine which can stitch clothes all by itself using AI. Guess which country that machine is now deployed? I was not aware that stitching had been historically very difficult to automate.
As far as average people really wanting work premise, I am not really sure. Once they get their cheeseburger, coke and netflix/facebook on their iPhone what else do they need? Seriously, there will be no revolution if masses are sheltered, fed and given all the entertainment. There is no undercurrent of wanting to work for money.
As far as average people really wanting work premise, I am not really sure. Once they get their cheeseburger, coke and netflix/facebook on their iPhone what else do they need? Seriously, there will be no revolution if masses are sheltered, fed and given all the entertainment. There is no undercurrent of wanting to work for money.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Vikas
As far as average people really wanting work premise, I am not really sure. Once they get their cheeseburger, coke and netflix/facebook on their iPhone what else do they need? Seriously, there will be no revolution if masses are sheltered, fed and given all the entertainment. There is no undercurrent of wanting to work for money.
I know a pile of old guys that are retired, but aren't. They have to be doing something. These are old boys that grew up using their hands and don't feel right not working, despite having worked long and hard to be able to do just that. They do odd jobs, chores for others..etc. They don't do it for the money, but they would have certainly, or been driven just as mad, probably moreso, back when they were young.
I'm sure you've heard of the expression about idle hands? There is risk in having too many, particularly those not drawn to being lazy, but simply forced out of work due to automation or other circumstances. Teens without purpose often end up deep into drugs, which then leads to crime. It is really no different for adults. These are people that are provided for, yet still manage to screw it up because they don't have purpose.
What you are advocating basically sounds like why the Romans had the games. Keep the populous entertained so they don't realize they are being exploited. Eventually that falls apart, and this is even worse because at least those people had something to do.
Yes, there will be those who will happily sit on their posteriors and collect the cheque and eat themselves silly. A lot of those people already do just that. Those aren't the people we need to concern ourselves with. The people I am talking about are those that work in factories, clean floors...etc, people that right now ARE employed and couldn't fathom not being. You probably haven't been exposed to those people and you really need to be to understand what I'm talking about.
As far as average people really wanting work premise, I am not really sure. Once they get their cheeseburger, coke and netflix/facebook on their iPhone what else do they need? Seriously, there will be no revolution if masses are sheltered, fed and given all the entertainment. There is no undercurrent of wanting to work for money.
I know a pile of old guys that are retired, but aren't. They have to be doing something. These are old boys that grew up using their hands and don't feel right not working, despite having worked long and hard to be able to do just that. They do odd jobs, chores for others..etc. They don't do it for the money, but they would have certainly, or been driven just as mad, probably moreso, back when they were young.
I'm sure you've heard of the expression about idle hands? There is risk in having too many, particularly those not drawn to being lazy, but simply forced out of work due to automation or other circumstances. Teens without purpose often end up deep into drugs, which then leads to crime. It is really no different for adults. These are people that are provided for, yet still manage to screw it up because they don't have purpose.
What you are advocating basically sounds like why the Romans had the games. Keep the populous entertained so they don't realize they are being exploited. Eventually that falls apart, and this is even worse because at least those people had something to do.
Yes, there will be those who will happily sit on their posteriors and collect the cheque and eat themselves silly. A lot of those people already do just that. Those aren't the people we need to concern ourselves with. The people I am talking about are those that work in factories, clean floors...etc, people that right now ARE employed and couldn't fathom not being. You probably haven't been exposed to those people and you really need to be to understand what I'm talking about.
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: Jimzz
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
A few decades from now the only thing US will manufacture is rubber dog c r a p. Things will get ugly.
Scott
Nope; most stuff will return to the US as time goes on. The difference is it will be machines making it here, not people.
A lot of manufacturing is returning to the US but its because machines have progressed enough to make things on their own for the most part.
I hope you’re right, but I watched the video of them making spark plugs in India and believe me, there were no humans on the assembly line. Think how cheap the land was for the factory and how cheap is was to assemble the factory.
Exactly. Being “made in America” doesn’t mean some person actually made it. So much stuff these days is 100% made by machines and or robots. It’s just the reality we live in.
Originally Posted By: Jimzz
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
A few decades from now the only thing US will manufacture is rubber dog c r a p. Things will get ugly.
Scott
Nope; most stuff will return to the US as time goes on. The difference is it will be machines making it here, not people.
A lot of manufacturing is returning to the US but its because machines have progressed enough to make things on their own for the most part.
I hope you’re right, but I watched the video of them making spark plugs in India and believe me, there were no humans on the assembly line. Think how cheap the land was for the factory and how cheap is was to assemble the factory.
Exactly. Being “made in America” doesn’t mean some person actually made it. So much stuff these days is 100% made by machines and or robots. It’s just the reality we live in.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Recently, I read about machine which can stitch clothes all by itself using AI. Guess which country that machine is now deployed? I was not aware that stitching had been historically very difficult to automate.
As far as average people really wanting work premise, I am not really sure. Once they get their cheeseburger, coke and netflix/facebook on their iPhone what else do they need? Seriously, there will be no revolution if masses are sheltered, fed and given all the entertainment. There is no undercurrent of wanting to work for money.
People need a purpose in life. Whether that is through work or through their own creation the need is the same. We are going through a transformative period where robots and machine are taking work from people and not enough new jobs are being created. The sole exception is in tech but this is dependent on where you live.
Once you take away a person’s purpose then it’s a very sad life indeed.
Recently, I read about machine which can stitch clothes all by itself using AI. Guess which country that machine is now deployed? I was not aware that stitching had been historically very difficult to automate.
As far as average people really wanting work premise, I am not really sure. Once they get their cheeseburger, coke and netflix/facebook on their iPhone what else do they need? Seriously, there will be no revolution if masses are sheltered, fed and given all the entertainment. There is no undercurrent of wanting to work for money.
People need a purpose in life. Whether that is through work or through their own creation the need is the same. We are going through a transformative period where robots and machine are taking work from people and not enough new jobs are being created. The sole exception is in tech but this is dependent on where you live.
Once you take away a person’s purpose then it’s a very sad life indeed.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The problem with this "new world" is that it doesn't leave room for these folk, but our push for "high end" work doesn't make them magically disappear either. They then end up unemployed, sometimes desperate, wanting to provide food and shelter for their family. This was something they were readily able to do before in the "old world" before we made it "better".
there's TONS of people like this in Texas....
Making $9.00/hr and starving except for Ramen noodles and hot dogs.....
The problem with this "new world" is that it doesn't leave room for these folk, but our push for "high end" work doesn't make them magically disappear either. They then end up unemployed, sometimes desperate, wanting to provide food and shelter for their family. This was something they were readily able to do before in the "old world" before we made it "better".
there's TONS of people like this in Texas....
Making $9.00/hr and starving except for Ramen noodles and hot dogs.....
We were in interior China few days ago visiting a Panda park. I was surprised how many people were washing and cleaning the the side walk by using brushes and hose rather than using a machine. I can not fathom something similar happening in USA. When done cost analysis, I could not see how it made any sense even in Sichuan province of China where standard of living is not that low.
I suspect Chinese government consciously made the decision NOT to use cleaning machine in that park.
I suspect Chinese government consciously made the decision NOT to use cleaning machine in that park.
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