Centrifugal Oil Filter

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doug Hillary used centrifuges in his OTR diesel truck trains that he did the testing of Delvac 1 on in the Australian outback. The ones where he he did the 1.2 million Km tear-down with the pull of the liner, piston and bearings for one cylinder and everything spec'd "as new". He's quite fond of them as I recall.


Thanks!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I had a Honda Super 90 that had this kind of filter. I don't see how it would be better than a Frantz or Trasko that filter down to submicron particles, and take out water. It's good, but better? Not unless it spins out water and coolant.


Condensation in the oil should mainly be taken care of by the crankcase ventilation system and getting the oil up to full operating temperature. Shouldn't be coolant in the oil unless there's a leak where there shouldn't be one.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
E-mail him and ask him about his non-disclosure and you will see for yourself. But yeah it's probably easier to and try it make it look like I'm hiding something.

Hiding something? No, that wasn't my point. I was suggesting that anyone who said that this type of centrifugal oil filter could filter out the additives was either making it up or just talking out of their rear end. I wanted to see the reasoning behind that statement.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doug Hillary used centrifuges in his OTR diesel truck trains that he did the testing of Delvac 1 on in the Australian outback. The ones where he he did the 1.2 million Km tear-down with the pull of the liner, piston and bearings for one cylinder and everything spec'd "as new". He's quite fond of them as I recall.

Which would likely not be the case if it was filtering out the additives

 

[eyeofthetiger]

Cool beans. I want to put one on my GMC to make it last forever. Is there a kit for not huge trucks?

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
Cool beans. I want to put one on my GMC to make it last forever. Is there a kit for not huge trucks?


Here's the tough situation:

1. Driving them.

You either need high oil pressure (60+ lbs. constant), or air pressure to drive the thing. This is not an issue on big trucks, with their very generous air supply, but is trouble for smaller engines. Don't spin it fast enough, and it don't work.

2. Evacuation

You either need a big drain back (3/4" or sometimes even larger) for gravity return models, or air pressure for air driven models in order to get the oil back to the engine, or it doesn't work.

With your truck having the 4.3, the E-ticket would be to have the centrifuge mounted right over the valve cover, and drain right back through the oil fill cap/hole. They use a similar system to do centrifuges on the Duramax engines, except their oil fill is up front.


If I were going to do a system for your truck, I would go with a high pressure oil pump (not high volume, however), high pressure bypass spring (should be standard on HP pump), and have the centrifuge drain drop straight into the valve cover. I would target 70psi constant oil pressure. Oil driven centrifuges are real happy in the 70-80 range.

Shouldn't be hard. We're dealing with a 5.7 right now that makes 72 psi hot, and the owner doesn't want it to be that way. His other engine sits like a rock at 40, cold or hot.

 

[eyeofthetiger]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
Cool beans. I want to put one on my GMC to make it last forever. Is there a kit for not huge trucks?


Here's the tough situation:

1. Driving them.

You either need high oil pressure (60+ lbs. constant), or air pressure to drive the thing. This is not an issue on big trucks, with their very generous air supply, but is trouble for smaller engines. Don't spin it fast enough, and it don't work.

2. Evacuation

You either need a big drain back (3/4" or sometimes even larger) for gravity return models, or air pressure for air driven models in order to get the oil back to the engine, or it doesn't work.

With your truck having the 4.3, the E-ticket would be to have the centrifuge mounted right over the valve cover, and drain right back through the oil fill cap/hole. They use a similar system to do centrifuges on the Duramax engines, except their oil fill is up front.


If I were going to do a system for your truck, I would go with a high pressure oil pump (not high volume, however), high pressure bypass spring (should be standard on HP pump), and have the centrifuge drain drop straight into the valve cover. I would target 70psi constant oil pressure. Oil driven centrifuges are real happy in the 70-80 range.

Shouldn't be hard. We're dealing with a 5.7 right now that makes 72 psi hot, and the owner doesn't want it to be that way. His other engine sits like a rock at 40, cold or hot.


Shouldn't be hard, eh?

Well, my worn out 4.3 has some low oil pressure, so maybe I'll just forget about the merry go round filter. I don't suppose there is some kind of electric drive for the things. My alternator works great!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doug Hillary used centrifuges in his OTR diesel truck trains that he did the testing of Delvac 1 on in the Australian outback. The ones where he he did the 1.2 million Km tear-down with the pull of the liner, piston and bearings for one cylinder and everything spec'd "as new". He's quite fond of them as I recall.

Which would likely not be the case if it was filtering out the additives

Exactly.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I had a Honda Super 90 that had this kind of filter. I don't see how it would be better than a Frantz or Trasko that filter down to submicron particles, and take out water. It's good, but better? Not unless it spins out water and coolant.


Condensation in the oil should mainly be taken care of by the crankcase ventilation system and getting the oil up to full operating temperature. Shouldn't be coolant in the oil unless there's a leak where there shouldn't be one.


What I said is not wrong.
You like getting evidence on the phone from anyone who answers it. Why don't you call the two Frantz sellers and the Trasko seller, and tell them your water story. Then report back what they say. They will probably say if the conditions produce water in oil, which they can and do in this world's reality, their filters TAKE WATER OUT.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doug Hillary used centrifuges in his OTR diesel truck trains that he did the testing of Delvac 1 on in the Australian outback. The ones where he he did the 1.2 million Km tear-down with the pull of the liner, piston and bearings for one cylinder and everything spec'd "as new". He's quite fond of them as I recall.

Which would likely not be the case if it was filtering out the additives

Exactly.


Not all units available do this. Some do and that was the point Terry was making Overkill. The fact that you have additive fall-out in oil jugs sitting around doesn't make this a crazy prospect. Think about it.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I had a Honda Super 90 that had this kind of filter. I don't see how it would be better than a Frantz or Trasko that filter down to submicron particles, and take out water. It's good, but better? Not unless it spins out water and coolant.


Condensation in the oil should mainly be taken care of by the crankcase ventilation system and getting the oil up to full operating temperature. Shouldn't be coolant in the oil unless there's a leak where there shouldn't be one.


What I said is not wrong.
You like getting evidence on the phone from anyone who answers it. Why don't you call the two Frantz sellers and the Trasko seller, and tell them your water story. Then report back what they say. They will probably say if the conditions produce water in oil, which they can and do in this world's reality, their filters TAKE WATER OUT.


It was my understanding that only the cellulose media takes some water out of the oil and that the synthetic media refills does not. ???

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: StevieC
E-mail him and ask him about his non-disclosure and you will see for yourself. But yeah it's probably easier to and try it make it look like I'm hiding something.

Hiding something? No, that wasn't my point. I was suggesting that anyone who said that this type of centrifugal oil filter could filter out the additives was either making it up or just talking out of their rear end. I wanted to see the reasoning behind that statement.


Which I explained why this couldn't be done. It's tangled in our discussion which I'm under non-disclosure for. I provided you at least proof that we discussed it. If this isn't what you are looking for then pay his fee, become a customer and ask him the question.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doug Hillary used centrifuges in his OTR diesel truck trains that he did the testing of Delvac 1 on in the Australian outback. The ones where he he did the 1.2 million Km tear-down with the pull of the liner, piston and bearings for one cylinder and everything spec'd "as new". He's quite fond of them as I recall.

Which would likely not be the case if it was filtering out the additives

Exactly.


Not all units available do this. Some do and that was the point Terry was making Overkill. The fact that you have additive fall-out in oil jugs sitting around doesn't make this a crazy prospect. Think about it.


Then what units do? The primary market of these units is OTR diesel applications like Doug's. In his usage, obviously this was never an issue and his usage profile is what I would describe as typical. Saying it happens doesn't provide supporting evidence of it actually occurring nor does it support that with proof of failure as a result of the claim. Doug's experience does however aptly illustrate the polar opposite. Any unit that actually successfully removed important additives from the lubricant would dramatically accelerate failure, a scenario which in turn would be widely discussed. I've seen no such discussion, have you?

Sediment in oil containers also doesn't prove anything. How many consumers do you think bother to shake their oil to get that stuff back into the mix and into their engines? Exactly. And do we even know what that material is? I believe Molakule touched on it at one point but I don't recall the exact details other than it wasn't important.

 

[goodtimes]

"It was my understanding that only the cellulose media takes some water out of the oil and that the synthetic media refills does not. ???"


I don't imagine synthetic holds water because the fibers are not absorbing water. I think with cellulose water is absorbed into the fiber, not on the fiber where the oil flow can take it away. I m not an expert, just discussing as an average person. The way I understood it is oil can't overcome the forces of water being held within cellulose fibers easily, so the oil just flows past the fibers and the water stays inside them. With non absorbent synthetic fibers oil will carry off any water on the fibers slick surface.
One question, since most oil is lighter than water, maybe a centrifugal filter can fling the water out?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I had a Honda Super 90 that had this kind of filter. I don't see how it would be better than a Frantz or Trasko that filter down to submicron particles, and take out water. It's good, but better? Not unless it spins out water and coolant.

Condensation in the oil should mainly be taken care of by the crankcase ventilation system and getting the oil up to full operating temperature. Shouldn't be coolant in the oil unless there's a leak where there shouldn't be one.

What I said is not wrong.
You like getting evidence on the phone from anyone who answers it. Why don't you call the two Frantz sellers and the Trasko seller, and tell them your water story. Then report back what they say. They will probably say if the conditions produce water in oil, which they can and do in this world's reality, their filters TAKE WATER OUT.


I didn't say they didn't and that you were wrong ... don't get excited and defensive.

What I'm saying is I don't think the ability of an oil filter to trap water is that important because any condensation from combustion will be taken care of by getting the oil hot and the crankcase ventilation system. How many oil filters have you seen cut open that have shown water to be trapped in them? I've seen zero cut open oil filters with trapped water inside because even if it did happen the condensation is usually burned off anyway for the reasons I've stated.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Then what units do? The primary market of these units is OTR diesel applications like Doug's. In his usage, obviously this was never an issue and his usage profile is what I would describe as typical. Saying it happens doesn't provide supporting evidence of it actually occurring nor does it support that with proof of failure as a result of the claim. Doug's experience does however aptly illustrate the polar opposite. Any unit that actually successfully removed important additives from the lubricant would dramatically accelerate failure, a scenario which in turn would be widely discussed. I've seen no such discussion, have you?

Sediment in oil containers also doesn't prove anything. How many consumers do you think bother to shake their oil to get that stuff back into the mix and into their engines? Exactly. And do we even know what that material is? I believe Molakule touched on it at one point but I don't recall the exact details other than it wasn't important.


I'm not sure... From what I gather, it is a bunch of units they could find while doing research to customize a design and there were before/after/control lab UOA's conducted.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes

"It was my understanding that only the cellulose media takes some water out of the oil and that the synthetic media refills does not. ???"


I don't imagine synthetic holds water because the fibers are not absorbing water. I think with cellulose water is absorbed into the fiber, not on the fiber where the oil flow can take it away. I m not an expert, just discussing as an average person. The way I understood it is oil can't overcome the forces of water being held within cellulose fibers easily, so the oil just flows past the fibers and the water stays inside them. With non absorbent synthetic fibers oil will carry off any water on the fibers slick surface.
One question, since most oil is lighter than water, maybe a centrifugal filter can fling the water out?


Yeah that is sort of what I thought... As I have a water problem in my UOA's in the Journey (not concerning but a "watch it" advisory) I might opt for a cellulose based filter of sorts to help with the water problem if I can't solve it with crankcase ventilation. I was thinking I might add this in addition to the Amsoil bypass filtration I was planning. Maybe I will filter the oil with the bypass unit, then run it through a cellulose type bypass filter for the water part and change the cellulose and regular filter at the same time regularly. Would be interesting to see what happens.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...

What I'm saying is I don't think the ability of an oil filter to trap water is that important because any condensation from combustion will be taken care of by getting the oil hot and the crankcase ventilation system. How many oil filters have you seen cut open have shown water to be trapped in them? I've seen zero cut open oil filters with trapped water inside because even if it did happen the condensation is usually burned off anyway for the reasons I've stated.


In regards to this... My oil regularly gets to 212-230F and it still has a moisture problem of 500-900ppm of water in the UOA samples so I think that it could be because I'm not using traditional media in my oil filters and using synthetic media.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Then what units do? The primary market of these units is OTR diesel applications like Doug's. In his usage, obviously this was never an issue and his usage profile is what I would describe as typical. Saying it happens doesn't provide supporting evidence of it actually occurring nor does it support that with proof of failure as a result of the claim. Doug's experience does however aptly illustrate the polar opposite. Any unit that actually successfully removed important additives from the lubricant would dramatically accelerate failure, a scenario which in turn would be widely discussed. I've seen no such discussion, have you?

Sediment in oil containers also doesn't prove anything. How many consumers do you think bother to shake their oil to get that stuff back into the mix and into their engines? Exactly. And do we even know what that material is? I believe Molakule touched on it at one point but I don't recall the exact details other than it wasn't important.


I'm not sure... From what I gather is was a bunch of units they could find while doing research to customize a design and there were before/after/control lab UOA's conducted.


That's not much to go on bud

Here's a thread with commentary from Doug in 2009

Where he states:

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Hi,
Charlie - I have had extensive experience with centrifuge oil cleaners over the last 50 years or so. Maintained well they are the best type of engine oil filtration. Not all are built the same however!

I was able to do without FF filters in my heavy trucks using 35micron SS FF inserts instead. This gave almost full lubrication system oil flow when cold

I used the MANN-Hummel FM060 (previously Federal-Mogul "Spinner 2") on my engines - cleaned at every second OC (they hold 600g of contaminants) they were troublefree at well over 2m kms. There must be enough pump volume to handle these devices and in my case there was and it was avery cost effective marriage

When combined with a top line synthetic lubricant I believe that they saved interim valve bridge adjustments which in the end became a 1m kms task or as needed instead of every 200k kms


And yet another thread where Doug comments

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Hi,
Joe I have had millions of kms experience with these wonderful centrifuge seperators

I have them retrofitted by Detroit at purchase to every new 500hp Detroit Diesel Series 60 engines I have purchased since 1998
This co-incided with commencing total use of Delvac 1 5w-40
They have enabled 100kkms OCIs and we now use cleanable SS 25micron mesh FF with them Previously I used Donaldson's excellent ELF FF filters which we changed at 100k - they were always completely empty after the centrifuge was fitted

I use the FM060 model which needs air to forceably return oil to the sump. The centrifuge holds about 600g of contaminant and takes about 10minutes to clean. If the paper insert is used the contaminants are very easily removed and disposed of. The capacity enables cleaning at every second OC in my fleet

Good oil flow is needed and the drain needs to be vertical in fall. The drain can be above or below the oil line but I always come in above

As they are audible in operation the driver can always tell if they are functioning. We have never had any problems and have never replaced a single part in seven years. They are able to be "recycled" to new vehicles

I believe that general engine wear has been reduced,the engines are cleaner because of the centrifuge. And by using a high quality synthetic 5w-40 HDEO of course

MANN-Hummel (Germany) are now the owners of the Spinner centrifuge name have purchased it from Federal Mogul some years ago
Centrifuge seperators have been fitted to many Euro engines over the years and are now being "encouraged" by Euro engine makers as part of extending OCIs with synthetic oils

They are a truely great product and much better than any by-pass filter IMHO

Check for my UOAs in the diesel section - "Detroit Diesel....."

Doug


From the same thread:

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Hi,
the MANN-Hummel centrifuge units are routinely installed on marine engines of up to 10,000hp
MAN-B&W, MTU-Detroit, Ssangyong, Wartsila are but some. These engines may have an oil capacity of 1500litres+ - the larger centrifuge units hold up to 6ltrs of dirt

It is important that the 10c paper insert is used on the wall of the centrifuge rotor cover and then the contaminants take a few seconds to remove - no digging!

I have used cartridge type by-pass filters on a variety of earthmoving equipment (dozers, scrapers, loaders etc.) and trucks - since the 1960s!. They were once common as a xtra spec option and installed externally alongside the hood on bonneted trucks. I do not know of a truck Manufacturer selling in OZ that offers them as an option now. The centrifuge seperator is a very different animal indeed

I would not start a new heavy diesel engine in any application without a centrifuge being installed first

For those wishing to use a TP or cartridge by-pass filter - great. This thread was however concentrated on the oil centrifuge - which incidently has been around for about 70 years!

Ralph - you said;
"I have a testimonial letter from a trucking company in Queensland with over a million K on a Detroit engine with no oil drains using depth filters."

Really!!!

I do not plan to commence a "...mine is best..." or "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" debate. For me I pay the bills and sign the capital cheques - if it does not pass the cost effectiveness/whole of life test it does not get purchased!
Many commercial equipment owners do not do this and that is why they still use mineral oils and the other "easy" technology that they feel comfortable with

I have however learnt to become very reticent about claims and testimonials.
An oft sold one of the classics in the heavy truck Industry is saying "...you get better fuel economy with XXX oil over YYY oil" Really????
Another is tyre brand and wear!

Unless facts and figures can be produced such claims can be quickly discounted - the variables usually overwhelm the "facts"

XS650 - the centrifuge model I use spins at up to 6000rpm

Doug [Cheers!]

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...
What I'm saying is I don't think the ability of an oil filter to trap water is that important because any condensation from combustion will be taken care of by getting the oil hot and the crankcase ventilation system. How many oil filters have you seen cut open have shown water to be trapped in them? I've seen zero cut open oil filters with trapped water inside because even if it did happen the condensation is usually burned off anyway for the reasons I've stated.

In regards to this... My oil regularly gets to 212-230F and it still has a moisture problem of 500-900ppm of water in the UOA samples so I think that it could be because I'm not using traditional media in my oil filters and using synthetic media.


Yes, I see your UOA here - LINK

Do you have other UOAs on this same vehicle from the same place with any different filters used? Being in the climate you're in up there, it could be a normal reading if you take an oil sample in the winter time with the cold temperatures. Maybe the PCV valve is getting tired - could be other factors involved. There are plenty of UOAs posted on BITOG that show low water levels when using full synthetic oil filters, so it's not an automatic direct correlation.