Caprice Dyno video and results

[ls1mike]

Here is the stock LS3 Cam
204/211 .551/.525 117
LS9
211/230 .558"/.552 122, but this a blower cam
LS6
204/218 .551/.547 117lsa
LS2 Cam
Specs

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Originally Posted by ls1mike
On a Dynojet I would have made over 400. A set of headers would put right around 420 but having the interior quiet is nice.

What about a 150 shot of NOS ?

Just kidding, I know you wouldn't want to hurt Hellcat owners feelings.

LOL, The Trans Am has it I have used it twice. The first time was at the track and I ran faster than 11.49 with no cage the next time was to prove a point to my wife. LOL
No N20 for the Caprice. LOL

 

[02SE]

Nice. Sleepers are so much fun.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ls1mike
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Looking at the torque curve you posted again.

Not a bunch of torque off the bottom. I want BIG torque from 1500 on up in a slushbox DD.

Nice for drags with gears and a loose converter - but too much for a DD.

Too much cam for me. But I don't work on LS motors with big ports -

I'm an old school Gen I guy the real SBC

I guess the FI big lobe separation makes it driveable.

Enjoy your car!


You need to drive an LS car like this I have had a SBC like you talk about there is no comparison. I am still pulling down over 20 mpg on the highway.
I also had two LT1 cars and an L98 Vette.

What you are saying about the LS is just not true. You can't even tell it is in there until you hit the go pedal. Well you get some chop at idle that is to be expected.

You are thinking to much cam for a SBC. This cam is perfect for my stall and daily driving. Most of the 6.0 guys are running the stage two or better.
You can't even compare SBC heads with LS3 heads and what cams are good for what as the tuning possibilities VS a traditional SBC are out of this world.
They are not even in the same ball park.

This is the stage 2 cam Specs: 227/234 .614"/.576" 113+2 Most guys daily drive this.

I am not trying to be an A** but they are just way to different to compare.



Yes, trying to get the old guys onboard with what's "current" with more modern mills is difficult sometimes. A prime example was the reference to an HFT camshaft and then comparing it to this roller stick. You can't compare the two, because the ramps on a roller cam are completely different. They also allow for significantly more lift. Nowhere near the lift you are running, but the TFS Stage 1 I ran in my SBF was incredibly mild by roller cam specs: 221/225 @0.050 on a 112LSA with .530/.542 w/1.7 ratio rockers. Had a very mild note at idle; almost stock, and came on hard at about 3,000 RPM, but had a very flat torque curve which made it very nice to drive. It had a set of ported GT40's on it and would have had its a$$ handed to it by your combo, as it made 270/300 at the tires

The stock 6.1L HEMI cam specs were also mild with lots of lift: 206/211 @0.050 on a 117 with .561/.545.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ls1mike
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Looking at the torque curve you posted again.

Not a bunch of torque off the bottom. I want BIG torque from 1500 on up in a slushbox DD.

Nice for drags with gears and a loose converter - but too much for a DD.

Too much cam for me. But I don't work on LS motors with big ports -

I'm an old school Gen I guy the real SBC

I guess the FI big lobe separation makes it driveable.

Enjoy your car!


You need to drive an LS car like this I have had a SBC like you talk about there is no comparison. I am still pulling down over 20 mpg on the highway.
I also had two LT1 cars and an L98 Vette.

What you are saying about the LS is just not true. You can't even tell it is in there until you hit the go pedal. Well you get some chop at idle that is to be expected.

You are thinking to much cam for a SBC. This cam is perfect for my stall and daily driving. Most of the 6.0 guys are running the stage two or better.
You can't even compare SBC heads with LS3 heads and what cams are good for what as the tuning possibilities VS a traditional SBC are out of this world.
They are not even in the same ball park.

This is the stage 2 cam Specs: 227/234 .614"/.576" 113+2 Most guys daily drive this.

I am not trying to be an A** but they are just way to different to compare.



Yes, trying to get the old guys onboard with what's "current" with more modern mills is difficult sometimes. A prime example was the reference to an HFT camshaft and then comparing it to this roller stick. You can't compare the two, because the ramps on a roller cam are completely different. They also allow for significantly more lift. Nowhere near the lift you are running, but the TFS Stage 1 I ran in my SBF was incredibly mild by roller cam specs: 221/225 @0.050 on a 112LSA with .530/.542 w/1.7 ratio rockers. Had a very mild note at idle; almost stock, and came on hard at about 3,000 RPM, but had a very flat torque curve which made it very nice to drive. It had a set of ported GT40's on it and would have had its a$$ handed to it by your combo, as it made 270/300 at the tires

The stock 6.1L HEMI cam specs were also mild with lots of lift: 206/211 @0.050 on a 117 with .561/.545.


Yeah I am not trying to argue, the engine have too much difference between the two to compare hotrod parts. There is a place for both engines.
I know you know a lot of LS and modern Hemi folks are running my lift for years with the correct valve springs and no drivability issues.
Everybody likes/knows different things.

The RV board is the worst. Those guys were like "You can't hotrod a modern engine" I said let me take on a journey down LS road.

 

[OVERKILL]

I can't even imagine how that RV discussion went

My buddy's dad is from Arco's generation and was all about the camel bump heads, single pattern cams and carburetors. We (my buddy and I) put together a more modern combo in his S-truck with a roller stick and a Holley TBI kit and it worked better and drove better than any of the "old school" combos he had put together before, as readily demonstrated by the time slips at the track. I believe he took the fuellie setup off it though because he hated that he didn't know how to work it, despite how well it ran

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ls1mike


The RV board is the worst. Those guys were like "You can't hotrod a modern engine" I said let me take on a journey down LS road.


I've read the RV board for quite awhile, but so far I've resisted the temptation to sign up.

You've got the fanboys of each marque. The guy from OZ that has some neat pictures, but also a chip on his shoulder for any truck sold in the USA. The weight police, etc, etc. If I were a member, I'd never get anything done. LOL.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by ls1mike


The RV board is the worst. Those guys were like "You can't hotrod a modern engine" I said let me take on a journey down LS road.


I've read the RV board for quite awhile, but so far I've resisted the temptation to sign up.

You've got the fanboys of each marque. The guy from OZ that has some neat pictures, but also a chip on his shoulder for any truck sold in the USA. The weight police, etc, etc. If I were a member, I'd never get anything done. LOL.


LOL!!! I gotta tell you no true words have been spoken, there is some good info, but some of the guys are living in the 60s or you need a 1 ton dually diesel to tow a Pop up!! Lol! You made my morning.

 

[caprice_2nv]

I like both. I have 2 running complete 5.3 engines ready to swap into my Caprice to replace the gutless 305. I just have to get the mounts and headers etc to make it fit and then do all the wiring.

I'm sticking with the old school 350 Oldsmobile v8 in my Cutlass. As much as I'd like a nicely upgraded ls engine in both of them I can't afford to do both, the 350 has decent drivability as it is while the 305 is kind of weak so it makes sense to upgrade it instead of my summer driver.

I'd rather keep a unique Olds engine in the Cutlass especially since it runs like new still and I want to run it until it's dead. That and I have no money to do the swap for a while. It's also hard to explain to my girlfriend that I need to budget to replace both of my engines. She can't even understand why I need to replace the Caprices engine. In her mind it runs and drives, what more do you need? I told her "better gas mileage and double the HP".

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by spasm3
There were 2 340 engines. The 9:1 and the 10.25:1 .

My dad had a 67 lesabre that he bought as a demonstrator. It was pretty quick for a heavy car. ( i was a kid, never drove it). I wonder if it had the GS 10:1 340 in it.

This motor is out of a 4 bbl car 67 340 GS. I think its cast in the block 340/4

These are torque motors with small valves, high compression and lumpy cam stock.

idle to 4000 that's it Great for DD.

and a two- speed super turbine 300 with switch pitch converter.
Those switch pitch were the nuts.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I can't even imagine how that RV discussion went

My buddy's dad is from Arco's generation and was all about the camel bump heads, single pattern cams and carburetors. We (my buddy and I) put together a more modern combo in his S-truck with a roller stick and a Holley TBI kit and it worked better and drove better than any of the "old school" combos he had put together before, as readily demonstrated by the time slips at the track. I believe he took the fuellie setup off it though because he hated that he didn't know how to work it, despite how well it ran

I all in for dual rochester TBI and DLI on the older engines.
Big point in a tune is getting timing map and fueling correct.
Hard to do with a carb and a mechanical distributor without tonnes of dyno time.

I will say my 355 had over 50 lb ft more torque than 1st mikes engine
all from of ilde to 3500 rpm - where you use it DD. you are only over 4500 for a second at the top of a shift point.

So where is the modern magic?

Or you don't like fat torque off the bottom?

Not being a wise guy, buts its all what you want from the car I suppose.

Pushrod V8? I want the big snappy torque. OTW it's a Cammer six spinning over 7 grand.

 

[ls1mike]

No one said anything about magic.

You said the car isn't what you like and we were trying to explain you can't compare an old SBC cam drivability VS an LS type engine Cam.

Again if you have not ridden in a LS car like this I will tell as soon as you hit 1500 RPM you are spinning all the way through 3rd.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

I will say my 355 had over 50 lb ft more torque than 1st mikes engine
all from of ilde to 3500 rpm - where you use it DD. you are only over 4500 for a second at the top of a shift point.

So where is the modern magic?

Or you don't like fat torque off the bottom?

Not being a wise guy, buts its all what you want from the car I suppose.

Pushrod V8? I want the big snappy torque. OTW it's a Cammer six spinning over 7 grand.


Was that 50lb-ft on the same brand/type of dyno and at the tires?

The torque curve on my 302 was as flat as Saskatchewan, but Mike's combo would still hand it its butt. Despite the wickedly flat torque curve, It had a very prominent "coming on the cam" feel at around 3,000RPM where it pulled hard to the 6,250RPM limiter. On the rollers, it hadn't stopped climbing when it hit that limiter. This was an SEFI setup with a very large intake (TFS-R) and 75mm throttle body.

Shift points are what you make them for the combo, mine was ~6,000RPM, otherwise you were on the limiter. You were still deep in the power band shifting at that point.

What kind of times did your 355 combo get at the track? The combo we built for my buddy's dad, he was all about the low end torque; same argument you are making. The modern combo gave up nothing in that SOP department but made significantly more HP, as evidenced by the timeslips.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I'm sorry I'm not talking a track car, only DD.

But you make your car as you like it.

My "Overpowered" street small block was a '66 Chevy II with a 355 and a GM 447/ 222 cam.

It was a stick car with a "milk truck saginaw with the first 3 gears close an top gear 1:1 ( of course).

Just over the limit. It was driveable, but it wanted you to romp on it, and when you did it fractured things like the pumpkin U joint saddles.

Didn't have enough dough or time to put a M21 and a 12 bolt out back. It was early 80's and had I debt. and rent was high.
One you put a lot of cam in a high comp motor, the final tune gets very critical. But not pleasant for a laid back cruise.

The Chelmsford ARCO Station's drag car - which became my DD for a while, was my Dad's old 74 Vega GT hatch.
I used a Don Hardy kit and put a 327 and TH350 in there out of my buddies an econorail.

That was a daylight under the front wheel munchkin.

When I was DD'ing it one night I pulled up to some slick dude in a back-porsche 6-er at the light in Andover at Shawsheen square
and nailed the light. Carried the fronts for 20 feet Guy didn't know what hit him.

Back then the ony fast cars were the late 60's BB chevelles and vettes and superduty ponchos and 440 GTX - everything else was big bumper slug smog bogs.

Yes I came of age in town with Jay Leno. His father and my father bought Buick Wildcats and Electras with big Nailheads in the mid 60's at the Buick dealer just over the line in Lawrence, Ma. Beautiful and fast.

Now see you got me reminiscing.

I must be an old greaseball.

 

[02SE]

Well, at least we now know your frame of reference for vehicles, when you state that no other street legal car can keep up with a hopped-up Yugo.

Vehicles have come a long ways since the 60's...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I'm sorry I'm not talking a track car, only DD.

But you make your car as you like it.

My "Overpowered" street small block was a '66 Chevy II with a 355 and a GM 447/ 222 cam.

It was a stick car with a "milk truck saginaw with the first 3 gears close an top gear 1:1 ( of course).

Just over the limit. It was driveable, but it wanted you to romp on it, and when you did it fractured things like the pumpkin U joint saddles.

Didn't have enough dough or time to put a M21 and a 12 bolt out back. It was early 80's and had I debt. and rent was high.
One you put a lot of cam in a high comp motor, the final tune gets very critical. But not pleasant for a laid back cruise.

The Chelmsford ARCO Station's drag car - which became my DD for a while, was my Dad's old 74 Vega GT hatch.
I used a Don Hardy kit and put a 327 and TH350 in there out of my buddies an econorail.

That was a daylight under the front wheel munchkin.

When I was DD'ing it one night I pulled up to some slick dude in a back-porsche 6-er at the light in Andover at Shawsheen square
and nailed the light. Carried the fronts for 20 feet Guy didn't know what hit him.

Back then the ony fast cars were the late 60's BB chevelles and vettes and superduty ponchos and 440 GTX - everything else was big bumper slug smog bogs.

Yes I came of age in town with Jay Leno. His father and my father bought Buick Wildcats and Electras with big Nailheads in the mid 60's at the Buick dealer just over the line in Lawrence, Ma. Beautiful and fast.

Now see you got me reminiscing.

I must be an old greaseball.






Nothing wrong with reminiscing but you didn't answer my question about that 50lb-ft of torque, was it on a chassis dyno, measured at the tires? And if so, what was the brand of dyno?

Regarding street/track, my Mustang was my DD that was drag raced periodically on weekends, same with that S-Truck of my buddy's dad, it was, and still is, his summer DD toy. Doesn't mean you can't take 'em to the track. Setup right you'll have a reasonably quick DD that turns decent timeslips at the track. Of course breaking stuff with traction is always an issue, I nuked 2x T5's and one 2x driveshaft yokes. The 8.8 is a pretty strong diff, so we swapped a 31-spine version out of an Explorer into the S10 after the GM diff started giving up the ghost, which also had the nice added benefit of giving the old S-truck rear disc brakes.

You forgot a few "back then" cars like the BOSS 429

I've mentioned this before, but the car my mom learned to drive on was a 60's vintage T-bird that was a former OPP pursuit car that had the "dealer installed" 427SOHC (which was only available over the counter from your friendly neighbourhood Ford dealership). At 657HP, there wasn't much that could touch it though apparently (and not surprisingly) wheel spin was a pretty big issue

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by 02SE
Well, at least we now know your frame of reference for vehicles, when you state that no other street legal car can keep up with a hopped-up Yugo.

Vehicles have come a long ways since the 60's...




Oh still sore over that Yugo/Fiat thing? I stand by it.

Vintage Ad For the Fiat Fans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmzxuxKQv-8


Plus , I'll take a swap with whatever is in my driveway with one of the good 60's cars all day long

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by 02SE
Well, at least we now know your frame of reference for vehicles, when you state that no other street legal car can keep up with a hopped-up Yugo.

Vehicles have come a long ways since the 60's...




Oh still sore over that Yugo/Fiat thing? I stand by it.

Vintage Ad For the Fiat Fans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmzxuxKQv-8


Plus , I'll take a swap with whatever is in my driveway with one of the good 60's cars all day long

I'm not sore at all. Never was. I'm simply saying that you are wrong.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by 02SE
Well, at least we now know your frame of reference for vehicles, when you state that no other street legal car can keep up with a hopped-up Yugo.

Vehicles have come a long ways since the 60's...




Plus , I'll take a swap with whatever is in my driveway with one of the good 60's cars all day long

That is where you lost me, there is a reason people retrofit LS engines in old cars, easy to tune, make gobs of power cheap, will run 250,000 to 300,000 miles easily and maintain daily driver viability with little effort. They want that old look but modern power.
You just can't do that easy with an old mill.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ls1mike
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by 02SE
Well, at least we now know your frame of reference for vehicles, when you state that no other street legal car can keep up with a hopped-up Yugo.

Vehicles have come a long ways since the 60's...




Plus , I'll take a swap with whatever is in my driveway with one of the good 60's cars all day long

That is where you lost me, there is a reason people retrofit LS engines in old cars, easy to tune, make gobs of power cheap, will run 250,000 to 300,000 miles easily and maintain daily driver viability with little effort. They want that old look but modern power.
You just can't do that easy with an old mill.

Exactly.