Can 0w20 handle high RPMs

[Bryanccfshr]

I would think in being asked to develop a challenging yet achievable sequence test, a budget must be made for additional engines. Running clones simultaneously with the different oil viscosities is preferable.
What I found interesting was that the cold start phase was not found to be a significant cause Of wear.
Repeated enough anything becomes imbedded as a truth. "Most wear occurs at startup" may need to be challenged.
Although incomplete and dissapointing in redundant methodology. There are some interesting reveals discovered with the unique methodology of wear measurement that were used.
Perhaps the proprietors of the technology used have limited expireince in engine testing. And this inexperience showed in failure to prepare for predictable types of failures. I do hope this is not the end of this due to that planning failure.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by PimTac
I went back through the report and I didn't see that part. I did so hurriedly though. It also mentioned the intercooler leaked as well. There were some stumbles in this test. Does it invalidate the results? Maybe not.

Stuff like this in other types of studies would not be allowed


Search for the word "damage" in the PDF. Yeah, coolant leaking into the cylinders might have caused that ring and ring land damage ... hard to say. They thought it might have been from piston over heating and "light end gas knock" ... maybe LSPI? Who knows ... ?? Sounds like they beat up that test engine pretty good.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
What I found interesting was that the cold start phase was not found to be a significant cause Of wear.
Repeated enough anything becomes imbedded as a truth. "Most wear occurs at startup" may need to be challenged.


What was even more surprising was the high wear from stop-start cycling.
"In automobiles, a start-stop system or stop-start system automatically shuts down and restarts the internal combustion engine to reduce the amount of time the engine spends idling, thereby reducing fuel consumption and emissions."

Test Conclusions:
• The stop-start cycles produced some of the most significant difference in wear rates for the two lubricants and often the highest wear rates recorded.

• In all the engine components measured there is a large difference in wear between viscosities during stop-start operation, with SAE 0W-16 oil giving significantly higher wear values than SAE 5w30 oil.

 

[Shannow]

Like I keep offering re cold starts, when the engine is cold, all of the voids and gaps between wear surfaces are full of oil that's cold, and very thick...many many times thicker than operating temperature.

So there's strong hydrodynamics going on, and quite a bit of cushioning.

Hot stop...you've got what you've got, and it's thin.

The saying "75% of wear occurs at startup" is fallacious, primarily as it's really "as much wear occurs in the first 20 minutes as the next multiple hours"...yes in order to warm up, you need to first cold start...but it's not the start per se.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
I would think in being asked to develop a challenging yet achievable sequence test, a budget must be made for additional engines. Running clones simultaneously with the different oil viscosities is preferable.
What I found interesting was that the cold start phase was not found to be a significant cause Of wear.
Repeated enough anything becomes imbedded as a truth. "Most wear occurs at startup" may need to be challenged.
Although incomplete and dissapointing in redundant methodology. There are some interesting reveals discovered with the unique methodology of wear measurement that were used.

I remember hearing that advanced additive technology has reduced metal to metal contact at startup via the use of sacrificial barriers. Heck - even older antiwear additives like ZDDP did that. Just add some more (or change the oil) before it's depleted and you're set.

Of course that didn't stop people from selling oil prelubers, or marketing such as the 1990s Castrol Syntec concentrating on esters bonding to metal parts.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
I would think in being asked to develop a challenging yet achievable sequence test, a budget must be made for additional engines. Running clones simultaneously with the different oil viscosities is preferable.
What I found interesting was that the cold start phase was not found to be a significant cause Of wear.
Repeated enough anything becomes imbedded as a truth. "Most wear occurs at startup" may need to be challenged.
Although incomplete and dissapointing in redundant methodology. There are some interesting reveals discovered with the unique methodology of wear measurement that were used.

I remember hearing that advanced additive technology has reduced metal to metal contact at startup via the use of sacrificial barriers. Heck - even older antiwear additives like ZDDP did that. Just add some more (or change the oil) before it's depleted and you're set.

Of course that didn't stop people from selling oil prelubers, or marketing such as the 1990s Castrol Syntec concentrating on esters bonding to metal parts.





Like Castrol's Magnetec.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I have some unique anectodotal experiences with magnetec. Edited to think more about how to describe how i interpreted its behavior after some rest.
quote=PimTac]
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
I would think in being asked to develop a challenging yet achievable sequence test, a budget must be made for additional engines. Running clones simultaneously with the different oil viscosities is preferable.
What I found interesting was that the cold start phase was not found to be a significant cause Of wear.
Repeated enough anything becomes imbedded as a truth. "Most wear occurs at startup" may need to be challenged.
Although incomplete and dissapointing in redundant methodology. There are some interesting reveals discovered with the unique methodology of wear measurement that were used.

I remember hearing that advanced additive technology has reduced metal to metal contact at startup via the use of sacrificial barriers. Heck - even older antiwear additives like ZDDP did that. Just add some more (or change the oil) before it's depleted and you're set.

Of course that didn't stop people from selling oil prelubers, or marketing such as the 1990s Castrol Syntec concentrating on esters bonding to metal parts.





Like Castrol's Magnetec. [/quote]

 

[ChemLabNL]

You will find your car basically totaled by emission system test failure due to oil getting past the piston rings far before the engine "explodes" on ya. That "quart burned every 3000 miles" is not mechanically or financially benign. The Prius hybrid is "totalled" when the hybrid battery fails cause it cost $4k to replace it...same idea.

How many people get rid of their cars when it fails the emission test?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
The Prius hybrid is "totalled" when the hybrid battery fails cause it cost $4k to replace it...same idea.

?? It sells for around $1500. It lasts ten plus years.

 

[ChemLabNL]

I would be surprised if the new Toyota Dynamic Force engines (0w16) didn't start burning oil before 50K miles.
It would be interesting to know the Moly content of Toyota 0w16.

 

[ChemLabNL]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
The Prius hybrid is "totalled" when the hybrid battery fails cause it cost $4k to replace it...same idea.

?? It sells for around $1500. It lasts ten plus years.


$5500 for a 10 year old Prius with ~120K miles....Probably worth it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
I would be surprised if the new Toyota Dynamic Force engines (0w16) didn't start burning oil before 50K miles.

I would be surprised as well.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Like I keep offering re cold starts, when the engine is cold, all of the voids and gaps between wear surfaces are full of oil that's cold, and very thick...many many times thicker than operating temperature.

So there's strong hydrodynamics going on, and quite a bit of cushioning.

Hot stop...you've got what you've got, and it's thin.

The saying "75% of wear occurs at startup" is fallacious, primarily as it's really "as much wear occurs in the first 20 minutes as the next multiple hours"...yes in order to warm up, you need to first cold start...but it's not the start per se.


I have always had the belief that if you drive your car hard during the first 5-10 minutes after a cold start, the engine won't last nearly as long as it would if you drove it more gently during that time. So I have also never really believed that the engine sees a ton of wear in those first few seconds after a cold start, it's really the first few minutes where things are not optimal.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
I would be surprised if the new Toyota Dynamic Force engines (0w16) didn't start burning oil before 50K miles.
It would be interesting to know the Moly content of Toyota 0w16.





Nonsense.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Shannow
Like I keep offering re cold starts, when the engine is cold, all of the voids and gaps between wear surfaces are full of oil that's cold, and very thick...many many times thicker than operating temperature.

So there's strong hydrodynamics going on, and quite a bit of cushioning.

Hot stop...you've got what you've got, and it's thin.

The saying "75% of wear occurs at startup" is fallacious, primarily as it's really "as much wear occurs in the first 20 minutes as the next multiple hours"...yes in order to warm up, you need to first cold start...but it's not the start per se.


I have always had the belief that if you drive your car hard during the first 5-10 minutes after a cold start, the engine won't last nearly as long as it would if you drove it more gently during that time. So I have also never really believed that the engine sees a ton of wear in those first few seconds after a cold start, it's really the first few minutes where things are not optimal.




Good point and I would guess this would be exaggerated in a tgdi engine like the ecoboost.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
You will find your car basically totaled by emission system test failure due to oil getting past the piston rings far before the engine "explodes" on ya. That "quart burned every 3000 miles" is not mechanically or financially benign. The Prius hybrid is "totalled" when the hybrid battery fails cause it cost $4k to replace it...same idea.

How many people get rid of their cars when it fails the emission test?

Doubt it. Oil burners pass emissions tests all the time. A quart every 3000 miles may (depending on the capacity) even be between the top and bottom of the acceptable level on the dipstick. My WRX has maybe 1.4 quarts between the dipstick min-max.

Besides, these days the majority of emissions tests aren't even direct tailpipe tests. The last few I had were just plugged into the OBD-II port and analyzed based on onboard data. The biggest worry would really be passing the visual check.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Shannow
Like I keep offering re cold starts, when the engine is cold, all of the voids and gaps between wear surfaces are full of oil that's cold, and very thick...many many times thicker than operating temperature.

So there's strong hydrodynamics going on, and quite a bit of cushioning.

Hot stop...you've got what you've got, and it's thin.

The saying "75% of wear occurs at startup" is fallacious, primarily as it's really "as much wear occurs in the first 20 minutes as the next multiple hours"...yes in order to warm up, you need to first cold start...but it's not the start per se.


I have always had the belief that if you drive your car hard during the first 5-10 minutes after a cold start, the engine won't last nearly as long as it would if you drove it more gently during that time. So I have also never really believed that the engine sees a ton of wear in those first few seconds after a cold start, it's really the first few minutes where things are not optimal.

It's kind of strange. I live on a hill where the only way out of our closed end is up an incline. One of the neighbors has a car with a small, high revving engine. And I can hear that thing get absolutely floored going up the incline after just two seconds of warmup. Never said anything to the neighbor though. I figure it's not my business to tell them how to drive their cars.

The other odd thing is that some neighbors have Toyota hybrids, and they seem to floor them too going up the hill where it's buzzing rather than going straight off the battery. I was under the impression that they typically work off of the electric side as it warms up the ICE from a cold start, but will rev if the demand for available power is exceeded.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Shannow
Like I keep offering re cold starts, when the engine is cold, all of the voids and gaps between wear surfaces are full of oil that's cold, and very thick...many many times thicker than operating temperature.

So there's strong hydrodynamics going on, and quite a bit of cushioning.

Hot stop...you've got what you've got, and it's thin.

The saying "75% of wear occurs at startup" is fallacious, primarily as it's really "as much wear occurs in the first 20 minutes as the next multiple hours"...yes in order to warm up, you need to first cold start...but it's not the start per se.


I have always had the belief that if you drive your car hard during the first 5-10 minutes after a cold start, the engine won't last nearly as long as it would if you drove it more gently during that time. So I have also never really believed that the engine sees a ton of wear in those first few seconds after a cold start, it's really the first few minutes where things are not optimal.

It's kind of strange. I live on a hill where the only way out of our closed end is up an incline. One of the neighbors has a car with a small, high revving engine. And I can hear that thing get absolutely floored going up the incline after just two seconds of warmup. Never said anything to the neighbor though. I figure it's not my business to tell them how to drive their cars.

The other odd thing is that some neighbors have Toyota hybrids, and they seem to floor them too going up the hill where it's buzzing rather than going straight off the battery. I was under the impression that they typically work off of the electric side as it warms up the ICE from a cold start, but will rev if the demand for available power is exceeded.




Maybe the computer sensed that there was a need for power so it over rode the standard instructions?

Hybrid systems can vary too. I rented a Altima hybrid once and the early morning temps were in the low to mid 20's. The car would start out on battery for a block or two then the engine would come on. I didn't care for the idea that the engine would start and be under immediate load like that. Imagine if it was close to zero or lower?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Like Castrol's Magnetec.

I'm not even sure what the current version is called. Was it Edge? I'm still just Mobil 1 0W-40 (or 5w30) for my WRX and whatever the cheapest 5W-20 I can find for my wife's Civic. Currently Mobil Super (and it's been a while since the last change because it wasn't running for 8 months) but now there's a jug of Chevron Supreme waiting to go in.

I suppose it sounds like a good idea to have oil bond to the surface to reduce wear, but I've heard that's not always good thing and it has to be balanced. Additives have to compete with the base oil, so it might be more critical to have as much antiwear compounds bonding to the metal.

But as for the whole discussion, there's always new technology changing the dynamic. Just 30 years ago hearing about cars routinely going over 200,000 miles without a rebuild was rare. I mean - you heard about it sometimes, but it was likely someone driving long distances and babying their car with short oil change periods. We're getting that now with long oil change periods. And with unsleeved aluminum blocks.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Like Castrol's Magnetec.

I'm not even sure what the current version is called. Was it Edge? I'm still just Mobil 1 0W-40 (or 5w30) for my WRX and whatever the cheapest 5W-20 I can find for my wife's Civic. Currently Mobil Super (and it's been a while since the last change because it wasn't running for 8 months) but now there's a jug of Chevron Supreme waiting to go in.

I suppose it sounds like a good idea to have oil bond to the surface to reduce wear, but I've heard that's not always good thing and it has to be balanced. Additives have to compete with the base oil, so it might be more critical to have as much antiwear compounds bonding to the metal.

But as for the whole discussion, there's always new technology changing the dynamic. Just 30 years ago hearing about cars routinely going over 200,000 miles without a rebuild was rare. I mean - you heard about it sometimes, but it was likely someone driving long distances and babying their car with short oil change periods. We're getting that now with long oil change periods. And with unsleeved aluminum blocks.





I share some of those thoughts as well. The idea of a polar molecule (esters?) coating engine parts sounds good and especially for stop-start engines. The one thing I wonder though is how this oil will react sitting on a hot surface and doing that over time. I maybe thinking too much on it.

I have not used the Magnetec oil so I am not in a position one way or another. I'm sure it's good stuff

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
...

The other odd thing is that some neighbors have Toyota hybrids, and they seem to floor them too going up the hill where it's buzzing rather than going straight off the battery. I was under the impression that they typically work off of the electric side as it warms up the ICE from a cold start, but will rev if the demand for available power is exceeded.


That sounds about right. All three Toyota hybrids I've driven, the old Prius, the Camry and the new Prius responded similarly. The computer "wants" to warm the ICE (oooo, there's a pun...) as quickly as it can by running it at low rpms, 12-15-hundred or so. If you demand more by stepping on it, it will definitely give, but you'll notice it draws disproportionately from the battery and use the electric motors if it can, though it will bring up the ICE rpms too, but "with reluctance." It creates an interesting effect as you get a disproportionate increase in torque from the electric motors, compared to the usual balance. It doesn't morph the car into a Corvette, but I like the feel of it.

The cars also "self-protect" to some degree by, in effect, pre-oiling themselves. I have the advantage of having had a ScanGauge installed installed on the dash, pretty much since I first started driving them, so I can see the actual rpms. If you watch, you can see the rpms start to spin up a couple eyeblinks before the computer adds fuel and spark. Don't try watching while driving!

This allegedly helps the engines withstand the huge number of start-stop cycles they endure compared to "normal" cars, and maybe helps with cold starts too.