Bummed about the China thread closure.
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Pablo,you made several good points regarding China and their trade practices.
The way that they black market many things makes it hard to have fair trade practices with them.
China needs to crack down on this type of stuff and show the world that they are ready and willing to be a leader and member of a global trading society.
I am not putting the Chinese people down,most are poor,the government just needs to make and/ or enforce fair trade laws.
The US and other countries need to put more pressure on China to be more accountable to the rest of the world in regards to fair trade.
It is difficult to trade with a country that is going to take what you sell and turn around and make fakes.
This practice costs legitimate companies untelling amounts of money each year.
It costs the average US citizen untelling amounts each year.
The way that they black market many things makes it hard to have fair trade practices with them.
China needs to crack down on this type of stuff and show the world that they are ready and willing to be a leader and member of a global trading society.
I am not putting the Chinese people down,most are poor,the government just needs to make and/ or enforce fair trade laws.
The US and other countries need to put more pressure on China to be more accountable to the rest of the world in regards to fair trade.
It is difficult to trade with a country that is going to take what you sell and turn around and make fakes.
This practice costs legitimate companies untelling amounts of money each year.
It costs the average US citizen untelling amounts each year.
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Well, we're all more or less suckling on China's teat when it comes to buying anything from household items to toys. Rip-offs? Yeah sure, how sleazy and cheap is that? I generally don't buy stuff like that.
It's not just the producers but the consumers who are to blame. If nobody were to buy the cheap crap and the fakes, then it wouldn't be worth making that stuff in the first place. But the average consumer probably couldn't care less -- just look at the product lines major retail lines carry. And it's not just the USA that milks while being milked, it's the whole world. For 20 years I have sat on the same brand Chinese-made plastic lawn chair in the US, in Asia, in Africa, and in Europe. Should I ever travel to the most exotic locale I can imagine, I fully expect to sit on the exact same type chair there, too.
People want cheap, so they get cheap. And in the long run this will cost the consumer in a throw-away society more.
All that said, not all Chinese products fall in the category of cheap products, but those are the ones that are vastly popular due to short-term thinking.
China is producing and consuming. 1 point something million people invariably consume massive quantities of goods. We've become consumers, we have not much to offer in terms of consumer goods. What do you want to sell the Chinese what they don't already make themselves?
PS: Check your laundry basket. Mine's "Made in USA." Where's yours made?
It's not just the producers but the consumers who are to blame. If nobody were to buy the cheap crap and the fakes, then it wouldn't be worth making that stuff in the first place. But the average consumer probably couldn't care less -- just look at the product lines major retail lines carry. And it's not just the USA that milks while being milked, it's the whole world. For 20 years I have sat on the same brand Chinese-made plastic lawn chair in the US, in Asia, in Africa, and in Europe. Should I ever travel to the most exotic locale I can imagine, I fully expect to sit on the exact same type chair there, too.
People want cheap, so they get cheap. And in the long run this will cost the consumer in a throw-away society more.
All that said, not all Chinese products fall in the category of cheap products, but those are the ones that are vastly popular due to short-term thinking.
China is producing and consuming. 1 point something million people invariably consume massive quantities of goods. We've become consumers, we have not much to offer in terms of consumer goods. What do you want to sell the Chinese what they don't already make themselves?
PS: Check your laundry basket. Mine's "Made in USA." Where's yours made?
It's kind of a game with us to find 'made in the US', or at least 'not made in china', but we still end up buying a fair amount of Chinese products as 'they're everywhere they're everywhere'. A fair warning though is to remmeber the status of 'made in Japan' years back, as when I was growing up it typically meant junk, except for some products which were of very high quality, like silk, crystal, optics, bamboo fishing rods, come cutlery, wood working tools, etc. Even now with Chinese goods it's just a matter of the product design and quality control that is used, as some of the products appear to be very good.
Some manufacturers are rethinking moving products offshore though, as it's not uncommon to see pirated products soon after a manufacturing line is set up.
Some manufacturers are rethinking moving products offshore though, as it's not uncommon to see pirated products soon after a manufacturing line is set up.
Mori,the laundry basket I checked is made by United Plastics.
You seem to be missing the main issue of the posts.
This is a quote from Pablo in the closed China Topic.
He says:
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"As China modernizes - the government is, of course, trying to get away with whatever they can. It just is not right for the RMB to not float, or have artificial barriers for imported products - while exporting all manner of goods, or to have zero patent/copyright protection enforcement, or not allow foreign corporation ownership. This is not paranoia - it's the truth!!!!"
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This s a very real problem.
I cant speak for Pablo but I also think that the knock-offs are a problem.
The trade practices are a problem.
Its not the legitimate products that are the problem as much as it is the knock-offs and trade practices.
Just as someone else posted in a different thread,some of this stuff is sold as the REAL thing,like the fake AC Delco filters.
This is what gets some people.
I think that most know what they are getting when it comes to 'Made In China' on the package.
Many dont care where a laundry basket comes from if it is cheap.
However,I think most want a name and expect that name to be real when they buy it,AC Delco for example.
I am not talking of the cheap knock off clothing,purses etc.
People know this stuff isnt real when they get it.
Its the stuff that says SONY,MGM etc.,etc. that is wrong.
It hurts the companies and the people that work for them.
There is a Panasonic plant here where I live.
When a Panasonic knock-off comes out of China on the black market,who does that hurt?
The people at the plant that make the REAL thing.
Also,I dont think anyone has said that China only makes junk,not in this thread anyway.
It is the package that looks and seems to be the real thing that gets people.
It is also the trade practices as Pablo was speaking of.
Trading needs to be fair,this just isnt happening.
No,many of the products that come out of China may not be made here but the cheap and mistreated workers in China make the trade with them unfair.
The Chinese government,at the workers expense,make it very difficult to compete with them.
This is probably why United Plastics has opened a plant in China.
This is why GM has invested more in a Chinese Automotive plant and plans on making the Aveo in China.
The trade practices need to be fair,not one sided favoring China,as Pablo stated.
I think it was on a recent PBS show,it stated that many of the glass-works(Tubes) in a television were now coming from China.
This included I think,RCA(Thomson Electronics),Samsung and Sanyo plus the many that I cant recall.
These companies cant afford to make their own glass and have to buy it from a Chinese company.
China has unfair and unethical trade practices and that is not right.
You seem to be missing the main issue of the posts.
This is a quote from Pablo in the closed China Topic.
He says:
-------------------------------------------------
"As China modernizes - the government is, of course, trying to get away with whatever they can. It just is not right for the RMB to not float, or have artificial barriers for imported products - while exporting all manner of goods, or to have zero patent/copyright protection enforcement, or not allow foreign corporation ownership. This is not paranoia - it's the truth!!!!"
-------------------------------------------------
This s a very real problem.
I cant speak for Pablo but I also think that the knock-offs are a problem.
The trade practices are a problem.
Its not the legitimate products that are the problem as much as it is the knock-offs and trade practices.
Just as someone else posted in a different thread,some of this stuff is sold as the REAL thing,like the fake AC Delco filters.
This is what gets some people.
I think that most know what they are getting when it comes to 'Made In China' on the package.
Many dont care where a laundry basket comes from if it is cheap.
However,I think most want a name and expect that name to be real when they buy it,AC Delco for example.
I am not talking of the cheap knock off clothing,purses etc.
People know this stuff isnt real when they get it.
Its the stuff that says SONY,MGM etc.,etc. that is wrong.
It hurts the companies and the people that work for them.
There is a Panasonic plant here where I live.
When a Panasonic knock-off comes out of China on the black market,who does that hurt?
The people at the plant that make the REAL thing.
Also,I dont think anyone has said that China only makes junk,not in this thread anyway.
It is the package that looks and seems to be the real thing that gets people.
It is also the trade practices as Pablo was speaking of.
Trading needs to be fair,this just isnt happening.
No,many of the products that come out of China may not be made here but the cheap and mistreated workers in China make the trade with them unfair.
The Chinese government,at the workers expense,make it very difficult to compete with them.
This is probably why United Plastics has opened a plant in China.
This is why GM has invested more in a Chinese Automotive plant and plans on making the Aveo in China.
The trade practices need to be fair,not one sided favoring China,as Pablo stated.
I think it was on a recent PBS show,it stated that many of the glass-works(Tubes) in a television were now coming from China.
This included I think,RCA(Thomson Electronics),Samsung and Sanyo plus the many that I cant recall.
These companies cant afford to make their own glass and have to buy it from a Chinese company.
China has unfair and unethical trade practices and that is not right.
One problem with China is that they have an ideaology not to much like the Third Reich! I forgett the name they use for it but they belive that they are the master race. They belive that it is their destiny to dominate the entire world! TO that end most of their economic strategy is based on this idea!
The reason they do not honer patent rights is really simple. They belive that as the supior race that any idea that is out thier they would have thought of eventualy so it was always theirs for the takeing.
I know this sounds crazy but truth is stranger then fiction!
For those that do not already know China is building up a Navy the likes of wich the world has never seen!
The reason they do not honer patent rights is really simple. They belive that as the supior race that any idea that is out thier they would have thought of eventualy so it was always theirs for the takeing.
I know this sounds crazy but truth is stranger then fiction!
For those that do not already know China is building up a Navy the likes of wich the world has never seen!
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1struck, while I'm pretty stoopid, borderline retarded, really, I was merely commenting, not arguing or debating the good points that Pablo made.
I agree on the copy-catting (is that a word?
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JB, please cite your source. As of right now, the most modern submarines the Chinese have, are a few rusty Russian Kilo Class killer subs. That's not exactly an overwhelming underwater fleet, considering their other 60 or so u-boats are rather old and dishelved.
The Liberation Navy's green water capability isn't exactly impressive at this time. Most of their sensing equipment is Russian-made and from the '70s or '80s. Their destoyers are old designs. The Chinese have not yet a sinlge aircraft carier, so they don't have the advantage of a powerful, mobile presence.
Like the Russians were unable to keep up an arms race with the West, the Chinese would have to do an awful lot of catching up before becoming a serious maritime threat. Defense of their coastal lines is paramount to the Chinese.
A Tom Clancy of Patrick Robinson style fictional scenario is at this time just that -- a fictional scenario.
I am Chinese and lived in China southern area around 20 years. I totally don't agree with the theory of master race. Where did you get that idea? I haven't sensed anything like that and if that was true, I would noticed it.
I do agree with privated, and illegal copied stuff is very popular in China. One of the factor is poor people can't afford stuff they want. It happens to most poor countries and developing countries. The average income in China is 4000 RMB / month (cities only). People live in ShangHai and some major cities can have around 10,000 a month. but most of the citizen in China are poor like 2000 or less RMB for a month. A computer will cost them at least 4000 RMB. A Windows XP OS is selling like 1000 something. A PS2 game will cost around 400 RMB. Therefore, many people use private software there. But people whom is rich (like 10000) income a month, they will buy the legal copy. But around 70 - 80% people in China are below the average income level.
Sorry, my English is bad enough. But just my thought and what culture and background I have gone through. I think I will know little better more than you about China
Thanks Zeo for that info.
I agree with Mori on the military aspect. They have mostly old Russian technology. Unless China goes full capitalist, I don't see how they can compete against the US. Communism simply can't compete with free enterprise.
I agree with Mori on the military aspect. They have mostly old Russian technology. Unless China goes full capitalist, I don't see how they can compete against the US. Communism simply can't compete with free enterprise.
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Keep in mind that the global economy is a closed loop system. It has bouts of expansion and contraction but everything ends up getting recycled. Wealth can only be created in an expansion ..otherwise it is merely exchanged.
What is going to happen to me? I'm a very very Americanized Korean-American.. if we go to war with China or North Korea, You might as well make a lynch for me on reserve.
No we won't lynch you KR!
Also thanks Zeo for posting - your spelling is phine
- your grammar is as at least as good as the average hacker here
I have travelled China and met many girls..I mean visited many companies...over the last 5 years and I never heard of this "master race" stuff....wow
I really really don't think we will go to war with China, at least in the next 20-30 years! That talk is far fetched, IMHO. As China prospers - and you noted the incomes in Shanghai and Beijng are nearing western style!!
[ July 13, 2005, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
Also thanks Zeo for posting - your spelling is phine
I have travelled China and met many girls..I mean visited many companies...over the last 5 years and I never heard of this "master race" stuff....wow
I really really don't think we will go to war with China, at least in the next 20-30 years! That talk is far fetched, IMHO. As China prospers - and you noted the incomes in Shanghai and Beijng are nearing western style!!
[ July 13, 2005, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
" "You seem to be missing the main issue of the posts."
"1struck, while I'm pretty stoopid, borderline retarded, really, I was merely commenting, not arguing or debating the good points that Pablo made."
I didn't say that. Maybe you're lsydexic :^)
"1struck, while I'm pretty stoopid, borderline retarded, really, I was merely commenting, not arguing or debating the good points that Pablo made."
I didn't say that. Maybe you're lsydexic :^)
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Oh dang. I just realized your name First Truck. I thought it was First Struck. I gotta pay more attention, although my better half claims I'm a hopeless case.
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Hmm ..I had visions of the old SNL parody of a merc film starring Silvester Stalone and Chuck Norris. It showed each 'locking and loading'. They start firing their guns. The narator says (with rolling text mirroring his words). "They'll be taking on:
Chinese Communists
Russian Communists
East Germans -make that all Germans
Indians (both kinds)
(no one was left untouched)
eventually the dynamic duo were up to their waists in shell casings.
So ..just watch out for Johnny Rambo and Col. James Braddock
"PS: Check your laundry basket. Mine's "Made in USA." Where's yours made? "
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Mine was made by Cain and his brother Abel. "The expelled from the garden of eden plastic co." I'd have to carbon date it to figure this one out.
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Mine was made by Cain and his brother Abel. "The expelled from the garden of eden plastic co." I'd have to carbon date it to figure this one out.
Why did you idjits go political? (read: go postal)
I was waiting for Hungdynasty to respond.
Hung - you may respond here, if you like.
I was waiting for Hungdynasty to respond.
Hung - you may respond here, if you like.
I use a cardboard box. Made in USA with USA trees, felled by nasty beavers.
I have been useing an old round cardboard barrell that according to the lable once contained 150 pounds of Date Cookie Dough....
Batchlors mentaility I guess on my part.... if it looks usefull , find a use for it.
At work we have two new employees who reciently immigrated from China.I have been slowy getting to know them alittle.The last few days here have been in the 90's temp wise and one of these gals is a delivery driver for us.She was wearing a long sleeve shirt and I asked her why.She said she didnt want to get sunburned.I realised she probably didnt know of or couldnt afford sunscreen.So while I was at the store I bought her a bottle of sunscreen.
I gave the bottle of sunscreen to her yesterday... She had no clue what sunscreen was.Once I explained what it was and how do use it she went and changed shirts and wore the sunscreen.
She was thrilled that such things like this existed and thanked me over and over.She said it made work day much easier and more comfortable.
She is from a poorer section of town in China and you can tell she is somewhat overwhellmed by the concept of a developed countrys consumerism..... in her old town the only thing they wanted was a chance to survive.
Batchlors mentaility I guess on my part.... if it looks usefull , find a use for it.
At work we have two new employees who reciently immigrated from China.I have been slowy getting to know them alittle.The last few days here have been in the 90's temp wise and one of these gals is a delivery driver for us.She was wearing a long sleeve shirt and I asked her why.She said she didnt want to get sunburned.I realised she probably didnt know of or couldnt afford sunscreen.So while I was at the store I bought her a bottle of sunscreen.
I gave the bottle of sunscreen to her yesterday... She had no clue what sunscreen was.Once I explained what it was and how do use it she went and changed shirts and wore the sunscreen.
She was thrilled that such things like this existed and thanked me over and over.She said it made work day much easier and more comfortable.
She is from a poorer section of town in China and you can tell she is somewhat overwhellmed by the concept of a developed countrys consumerism..... in her old town the only thing they wanted was a chance to survive.
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