Brake rotors keep warping

[cos]

Trav,

Thanks for the link to that Roloc product. I've always sanded the hub area by hand with garnet sandpaper but that Roloc product looks like a great timesaver!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Don't follow that procedure with ceramic/organic pads on a typical car, or you will have pad deposit issues or damage the compounds. That procedure was meant for semi-met or "track" pads.

Believe it or not, some pad manufacturers (and vehicle manufacturers) have recommended it for some of their more typical pads. Myself, I almost never have bothered. The Raybestos EHTs recommend a bed in; the G37 shop manual recommends a bed in, too. I did it up front on the G37, but not when I did the rears. I split the difference, I guess.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Garak
the G37 shop manual recommends a bed in, too. I did it up front on the G37, but not when I did the rears. I split the difference, I guess.

Correct, if you use OE pads if not (not just an OE manufacturer but actual branded pads from the dealer) then go by the pad manufacturers recommendation. I know Nissan had some OE pads that actually cleaned up the rotor in the first few miles and doing a bed procedure will ruin that initial use coating.

 

[nthach]

When I installed OEM-boxed pads but not true OEM pads(Toyota TCMC which are made by Akebono instead of Japanese-made Advics/Sumitomo), there wasn't a recommendation to follow a certain break-in procedure, nor does Toyota have an "official" procedure except for parking brake shoe replacement.

 

[ram_man]

So the problem probably lies in the brake pads. The rotors probably aren't the problem. I ask because I can warranty it all . I could warranty the rotors and just buy better pads versus buying all new.

 

[Trav]

Warranty the rotors and if anything go with cheaper pads, not saying total trash but not the severe biting boat anchors.
I have seen this many times, elcheapo rotors with really good pads that grab hard, the rotors were well duffed in a short time.

With good rotors (eg high carbon) the good pads and rotors live a long time. It is just my opinion but like quality seems to give the best and longest lasting results.
For this reason OE is generally a safe bet for braking under all but the most sever operation like track use but if you spend the money for high quality the results are usually just as good or sometimes even better in some areas.

Generally...
High quality rotors with cheap pads will provide extended rotor life.
High quality and metallic pads with cheap rotors will provide extended pad life and trash the rotors.
Like quality and OE will provide the longest possible life for both, OE will be longer and cheap will be shorter but at least the wear is equal.
There are always exceptions.

 

[ram_man]

Anyone have any experience with the power stop sport evolution brake pads?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
Anyone have any experience with the power stop sport evolution brake pads?

Buy real factory pads (not mopar value line) and pair them with quality rotors. Stop using these crummy parts and it will solve a lot of your problems.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Anyone have any experience with the power stop sport evolution brake pads?

Buy real factory pads (not mopar value line) and pair them with quality rotors. Stop using these crummy parts and it will solve a lot of your problems.

There's a paradigm in the bike world: strong, light, cheap. Pick any two. This somewhat applies to cars as well. If you have the $, OEM pads. If not, it's a matter of finding a pad that works.

Powerstop seems to be like a hipper Centric - a importer of Thai or Chinese pads that seem to work OK or bad depending on what you use them on. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2033360

 

[davison0976]

In my lifetime I've owned both automatic and manual transmission vehicles. My current '13 Wrangler is a 6sp manual. It occurred to me once that I had never ever ever experiences jittery brakes on a car with a manual transmission. Meanwhile, every single car with an auto transmission had developed jittery brakes sooner or later, usually within 30-40K miles.

Since I've never raced any of my vehicles I can only narrow this down to how much brake pressure one has to apply while at a stop light. With a manual transmission car it's practically nothing. With an auto transmission you have to hold brake pedal firmly.

I highly doubt normal street driving generates enough heat to actually warp the rotors. Areas of excessive brake pad deposits, however, is something I have seen over and over again when replacing rotors on cars with an auto. Therefore, it must be a question of finding quality brake pads that can withstand being pressed against hot rotors without leaving isolated spotting.

 

[davison0976]

This is what I was talking about, - brake pad material deposits on the rotors causing vibration while braking.

These are G37 original rear rotors that were paired with original brake pads, taken off after 5 years and about 40K original miles. Vibration was bad and first noticed at around 25K miles on odo.

 

[newtoncd8]

Originally Posted By: davison0976
I highly doubt normal street driving generates enough heat to actually warp the rotors. Areas of excessive brake pad deposits, however, is something I have seen over and over again when replacing rotors on cars with an auto. Therefore, it must be a question of finding quality brake pads that can withstand being pressed against hot rotors without leaving isolated spotting.


Interesting post ... our RX330 has had a rotor pulsation issue occur about every 25-35k since new. I have tried OEM Lexus, Advics, Akebono and even tried cryogenic rotors -- and the pulsation always comes back. I always ensure the lug nuts are hand torqued and I lube the pins.

Based upon my research and a recommendation from topbrakes, for this brake replacement, I went with Porterfield R4-S carbon fiber brake pads. So far, I only have about 3,000 miles on them, so I don't know if the same deposit issue will reoccur, but it can't be any worse than previous sets of pads. I will report back when/if it reoccurs.

Perhaps this might help others that experience the issue.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted By: newtoncd8
Originally Posted By: davison0976
I highly doubt normal street driving generates enough heat to actually warp the rotors. Areas of excessive brake pad deposits, however, is something I have seen over and over again when replacing rotors on cars with an auto. Therefore, it must be a question of finding quality brake pads that can withstand being pressed against hot rotors without leaving isolated spotting.


Interesting post ... our RX330 has had a rotor pulsation issue occur about every 25-35k since new. I have tried OEM Lexus, Advics, Akebono and even tried cryogenic rotors -- and the pulsation always comes back. I always ensure the lug nuts are hand torqued and I lube the pins.

Based upon my research and a recommendation from topbrakes, for this brake replacement, I went with Porterfield R4-S carbon fiber brake pads. So far, I only have about 3,000 miles on them, so I don't know if the same deposit issue will reoccur, but it can't be any worse than previous sets of pads. I will report back when/if it reoccurs.

Perhaps this might help others that experience the issue.



One theory I am currently trying to prove/disprove is that the root cause of all of this is a partially sticking brake caliper piston that doesn't fully release. It keeps pressing brake pads against the rotor a little harder than it should while driving with no brakes applied causing surface temperatures to stay hotter on average. Then when brakes are applied more heat is released and brake pad material gets deposited in patches like on the pics I had posted.

Last time I did the brake job I lubricated inside the rubber boot covering brake caliper piston with brakes silicone lube before pressing the pistons in. It has only been a few thousand miles so far. Will see how it goes.

 

[red7404]

my dad had 82 Dodge 3/4 Ram. very shortly after new it had a wheel vibration. turned out to be the brake pads was dragging because the piston was fiber not metal. that fixed it.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: davison0976
Originally Posted By: newtoncd8
Originally Posted By: davison0976
I highly doubt normal street driving generates enough heat to actually warp the rotors. Areas of excessive brake pad deposits, however, is something I have seen over and over again when replacing rotors on cars with an auto. Therefore, it must be a question of finding quality brake pads that can withstand being pressed against hot rotors without leaving isolated spotting.


Interesting post ... our RX330 has had a rotor pulsation issue occur about every 25-35k since new. I have tried OEM Lexus, Advics, Akebono and even tried cryogenic rotors -- and the pulsation always comes back. I always ensure the lug nuts are hand torqued and I lube the pins.

Based upon my research and a recommendation from topbrakes, for this brake replacement, I went with Porterfield R4-S carbon fiber brake pads. So far, I only have about 3,000 miles on them, so I don't know if the same deposit issue will reoccur, but it can't be any worse than previous sets of pads. I will report back when/if it reoccurs.

Perhaps this might help others that experience the issue.



One theory I am currently trying to prove/disprove is that the root cause of all of this is a partially sticking brake caliper piston that doesn't fully release. It keeps pressing brake pads against the rotor a little harder than it should while driving with no brakes applied causing surface temperatures to stay hotter on average. Then when brakes are applied more heat is released and brake pad material gets deposited in patches like on the pics I had posted.

Last time I did the brake job I lubricated inside the rubber boot covering brake caliper piston with brakes silicone lube before pressing the pistons in. It has only been a few thousand miles so far. Will see how it goes.


If your calipers have retraction springs (mine do but I THINK they aren't universal) it might be worth getting new ones, and maybe replacing the other ancilliary hardware (I have stainless steel clips that the pad ears move on).

Stiction can also occur between the calipers and pins, which should be clean and lubricated. I cleaned mine with aluminium foil, lubricated with silicon grease, and wrapped PTFE tape around them. The last isn't a generally recommended procedure and might be a bad thing if the brakes ever get really hot, so I might not do it again.

Apologies if this is all obvious.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: Trav


Yep it should 100%. You use the 3M (or similar) tool too I see.


I've been using a wire brush and a cup wheel for a while just to knock down the rust but I can't seem to get between the wheel studs and hub lip. I need to get this for the next brake job I do.


Coke (or beer) can works quite well. Can be formed into various shapes and leaves some aluminium behind to inhibit rust. A bit of aluminium tube (old TV aerial, arrow shaft, etc, suitably packed) can get into tight spaces.





https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4397470/Re:_Coke_Can_for_Brake_Drums#Post4397470

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: Ducked


If your calipers have retraction springs (mine do but I THINK they aren't universal) it might be worth getting new ones, and maybe replacing the other ancilliary hardware (I have stainless steel clips that the pad ears move on).

Stiction can also occur between the calipers and pins, which should be clean and lubricated. I cleaned mine with aluminium foil, lubricated with silicon grease, and wrapped PTFE tape around them. The last isn't a generally recommended procedure and might be a bad thing if the brakes ever get really hot, so I might not do it again.

Apologies if this is all obvious.


The aftermarket has been providing the pad hardware in the box in most import applications which include new abutment clips, pad anti-vibration springs and anything that touches the pad besides shims. Akebono doesn't but Wagner, Bendix, Centric, Monroe and Raybestos does on mid-level to "premium" pads.

I do notice on Toyotas the abutment clips and V-shaped pad springs do lose their tempering - the abutment clips do install with a snap or click when new but fall out after they've been heat-cycled over the life of the pads.

 

[researcher]

Originally Posted By: newtoncd8

Interesting post ... our RX330 has had a rotor pulsation issue occur about every 25-35k since new. I have tried OEM Lexus, Advics, Akebono and even tried cryogenic rotors -- and the pulsation always comes back. I always ensure the lug nuts are hand torqued and I lube the pins.

Based upon my research and a recommendation from topbrakes, for this brake replacement, I went with Porterfield R4-S carbon fiber brake pads. So far, I only have about 3,000 miles on them, so I don't know if the same deposit issue will reoccur, but it can't be any worse than previous sets of pads. I will report back when/if it reoccurs.

Perhaps this might help others that experience the issue.


hey that's good news! I have Porterfield R4-S on both my civic and scion tC. It will remove ANY deposits off your rotors! If you ever do get deposits, get hard into the brakes and it will scrub it right off. I did have problems with the Toyota brand rotors on the tC. They continued to get deposits which would cause vibration. I finally gave up on Toyota's brand of rotors then trying a couple different brands.

The winner I ended up with are the Bosch Quietcast rotors. They claim they have more carbon in them, and I will say that stopping has been much better with them. So they may be onto something here. Plus the run-out I've measured has been almost zero.. Like the run-out gauge will just vibrate at zero when measuring the run out (once the hub has been cleaned with 3m Roloc disc brake cleaning kit). Vibration has been a thing of the past now! No need to "scrub" off the deposits. This rotor is working well with the R4-S pads. In all temps.

Also.. to everyone else, the 3m roloc disc cleaning kit is designed NOT to take off metal, only corrosion, if you sand too much with something more aggressive you will take metal off the hub. not a great idea. Because then you will have removed material from the hub, it will not be parallel and vibration would occur. At that point the only fix is a new hub, unless you sand the other side EXACTLY the same amount to balance. But I don't think less material on the hub is my idea of safe.

anyway just wanted to tell ya someone else has the R4-S pads and love em! I get about 40k out of a set on the tC, about 50k on the civic.

 

[newtoncd8]

Originally Posted By: researcher
anyway just wanted to tell ya someone else has the R4-S pads and love em! I get about 40k out of a set on the tC, about 50k on the civic.


Thanks for that ... the one thing I couldn't seem to figure out was, what kind pad of life is to be expected. If I can get 50k out of them and not incur brake pulsation, I will be quite pleased. I guess time will tell, but so far, so good.

 

[andyd]

I have a cheap HF right angle grinder with a knotted wire wheel It is what I use to de-rust scaled rust. Get the surfaces smooth.No grinder? Heavy grit sandpaper will remove the pad transfer. For hub faces, I spread on a thin coat of chassis lube.That should prevent rust between the 2 faces. I also grease the mounting face of the wheel and the lugs. A sticky caliper can be taken apart, cleaned and lubed. Pay attention to the slides too. This is a maintenance item. Most people just replace the parts at the first time of trouble. I hold to the fact if a rotor hasn't been chewed up by a worn out pad, it is OK. OP, try bedding in the pads next time