BITOG Opinions on Outback Problem

[Thorn]

Presently, I drive a 1997 Subaru Legacy AWD sedan with 245k miles, and I was thinking about replacing it with a used 2005 Subaru Outback. I started looking around on an Outback forum, and I noticed that many members there have posted that the 2005+ Outbacks (model years after the last redesign) exhibit dangerous behavior in some winter driving conditions - so much so that some members have commented that they will be getting rid of their otherwise great cars. Some members have attributed the behavior to the suspension set-up or LSD. In addition, some have contacted Subaru and/or Subaru dealers, and they are basically getting blown off. If the word gets out that Subarus are terrible in winter conditions, that could doom their U.S. market.

Has anyone here experienced these issues, or can anyone comment on what the cause might be and if it can be corrected relatively easily? Here is a link to the thread on the Outback forum. I read it pretty carefully, and I'm fairly convinced that it is not just a group of owners who don't know how to drive or expect too much from their vehicles.

Outback Forum - Dangerous on Ice

 

[Bill in Utah]

My 2007 Outback does excellent on ICE, Snow, Slush, wet and dry pavement.


Of course, unless you have studs (can not put chains on Outbacks) anything is going to be a little slippery on ice. But I'm impressed with the Outback and its operation.

It also is a very strong car that protects the passengers. When the Semi hit my wife, the car took the hit and once repaired is back on the road fine.

I've operated everything in snow/ice and can say without question, the 07 Outback is one of the best for all weather.

Take care, bill

 

[badtlc]

I cant comment on what causes the problem, but I can say I have personally seen something along those lines.

I was in columbia, MO last winter during a snow storm. My front wheel cavalier was doing just fine but it was nasty out. I was behind a subaru who was driving very diligently and being slow and cautious. They went to make a slow left hand turn at about 5mph and completely lost it. They did a 180 and blocked off a lanes for both going and oncoming traffic. You could see the rear wheels start to spin just before the car lost it.


EDIT: Oh yeah, the car was a late model Legacy. I'd guess it was a 2005 or 2006.

 

[1sttruck]

Traction starts with adequate tires, otherwise it doesn't matter if you have eleventeen wheel drive. Anyone remember WWII footage of tanks sliding off the road ?

While doing some winter driving practice with the kids in the older Taurus last year we watched 4WD Jeeps with big mud tires do slow out of control 360s in a parking lot. Pickups, SUVs, etc. were having problems while we tooled along with zero problems in our plebian front wheel drive sedan, but we did have studded Hakkas on all wheels, tires that were used for ice racing a few years back.

 

[Thorn]

Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
Traction starts with adequate tires, otherwise it doesn't matter if you have eleventeen wheel drive. Anyone remember WWII footage of tanks sliding off the road ?

While doing some winter driving practice with the kids in the older Taurus last year we watched 4WD Jeeps with big mud tires do slow out of control 360s in a parking lot. Pickups, SUVs, etc. were having problems while we tooled along with zero problems in our plebian front wheel drive sedan, but we did have studded Hakkas on all wheels, tires that were used for ice racing a few years back.


I couldn't agree more (I have four studded Hakka's on my Subaru right now). However, after reading that entire thread, I am convinced that there is more at play here than just a few ignorant drivers with bad tires. Many of these members claim they have been driving in harsh winter conditions all of their lives in places such as Minnesota, New England, upstate New York's snow belt, etc. with snow tires, with other model Subarus, and on and on. They purchased these cars specifically for this reason, many of them after having owned Subarus for years. Yet they say that this particular Outback is the absolute worst performer in certain winter driving conditions that they have ever experienced - like there is definitely something wrong with its operation. Most of them sound like smart, reasonable people who seem to know what they are talking about.

 

[03cvpi]

If it was a suspension redesign. It maybe that previous drivers of sube's are driving it like there old one. I know when Ford redesigned the Crown Vic from spring to watts suspension, it required a little relearning to know when the car was going to come loose in snow. I know from expierience that the watts type will come loose a little easier, but it is alot easier to control the oversteer, atleast for me. But good tires are needed also.

 

[Drew99GT]

Generally I find it's easier to kick the back end out of a rwd vehicle with a locker or LSD, and also easier to kick the back end out of an AWD vehicle compared to rwd (with no locker or LSD) or fwd (of course). I had a Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo AWD (with LSD rear diff) when I was younger and on snow and ice, it was pretty darn easy to kick it out; easier than pretty much any other car. Very over steery. But it still had awesome traction from a standstill. That car is what made me a good driver IMO, because I learned to deal with oversteer very well and to go opposite lock if need be with throttle to keep it under control.

I think the Subes might be the same way with the rear LSD or whatever system they use - as soon as a tire slips and the system acts to send power to the other side, it can break the rear end loose. If the rear end brakes loose and you let off the gas and jam the brakes (and not steer into the skid), it'll just whip around like my Eclipse would. Even on just slight curves or light steering input.

 

[1sttruck]

I prefer an open diff or better yet a selectable locker. A common attribute of a vehicle with a limited slip is that it kicks the rear end around when you punch it, or sometimes does so on ice, standing water, or or curves. Wth the open diff if it slips the tires just squawk a bit or the vehicle slows down a bit, and if needed I can snick my truck into 4wd. A selectable locker would provide a another layer of defense. A limited slip is fine for mixed traction surfaces but can cause problems on surfaces of uniformly low traction.

 

[dhise]

They must have changed something becasue my 2000 Legacy had the limited slip rearend and I even put a whiteline sway bar on the back to reduce the understeer, the car basically went where you turned the steering wheel. Never had the rear end come around or even close to being out of control. However, my wife's honda crv would be tail happy in the slick stuff.

 

[rpn453]

Quote:
I've got an 05 2.5 i, MT with good AS tires with about 8K miles on them. I've experienced the ghost walking with 4 adults in the car, going in a straight line down a slight incline with little or no throttle. Probably about 45mph at the time. The road had sections of ice, that we have been getting so often this year in New England.
I figured it must be a rear end geometry issue based on the fact that there were no other real inputs from me (throttle, steering, corners, braking, wind, etc) that would typically move the rear end around. (It only oscillated back and forth a few inches at most side to side and fairly quickly). There was little or no noticeable vertical motion.

I had the alignment checked last Friday, and the back left TOE was out of spec at 0.40 deg. Spec is -0.13 to 0.13 deg.

This past weekend I took the car to VT. and didn't encounter the same road conditions, but did drive on icy dirt roads at about 40 to 50 mph. The car definitely was more stable, but again didn't have exactly the same road conditions.


I'd be interested in knowing if this guy's Outback was in a toe-in or toe-out condition before the alignment (ablegen, page 6), and whether being out of spec contributed to the problem. Being on the the toe-in side of the alignment spec might help the situation. The R/C car I had in my youth (Tamiya S10 4X4) had 2 or 3 degrees of toe-in on the rear wheels, which supposedly helped with stability.

 

[oilyriser]

Maybe these cars have that new vehicle dynamics control, and the software for it hasn't been perfected under enough road and load dstribution conditions.

 

[rpn453]

I don't think it's due to anything electronic.

Originally Posted By: jazzyMT (Page 3)
1) Our cars don't have Traction control. VDC is a specific trim level/option and is installed on extremely few Subarus.

2) The LSD in both the Auto & Manual vehicles is a viscous coupling - not controlled by electronics & not capable of anything other than making both wheels spin at similar rates. It cannot "overdrive" one wheel while driving in a straight line.

3) Wheel sensors cannot have anything to do with it if manual transmission drivers feel the same thing as automatic transmission drivers - so the center differential is also out.