Best NOACK for 0w20

[bbhero]

Originally Posted By: buster
The base oil viscosity and how many cuts of base oil used can make oils with the same Noack provide different consumption. Noack isn't that related to direct injection. High Noack could just be due to light mineral base oil which wont cause problems. I believe it is when the blow by gases start taking additives and combustion byproducts that cause issues.



Has per usual buster is right.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
I followed you until you said that using a high Noack oil is better for IVD. Just because low Noack doesn’t help IVD (according to the study), I don’t think you say high Noack is better for IVD. Sort of like the whole the enemy of my enemy is my friend fallacy.

My understanding here:

(1) Amount of oil that comes through PCV is independent of NOACK, as it comes as a mist (liquid droplets) that contains additives in it, not as an evaporated-base-oil vapor without additives.

(2) Better base oils such as PAO/POE and GTL tend to cause less deposits due to less oxidation. However, this is not because they have lower NOACK. They happen to have lower NOACK because they are better base oils.

(3) Thinner oils and oils with lower NOACK cause less deposits because they evaporate faster on the intake valves. The slower the oils evaporates, the more the time it will spend wetting the intake valves and the more the deposits it will leave behind. Also, thinner oils tend to have better cleaning abilities due to lower aniline points.

Therefore, I think a high-quality base oil (such as PAO/POE or GTL) with the lowest possible viscosity (0W-xx with the thinnest possible base oil for a given base-oil type) will lead to the least intake-valve deposits for a given additive package. However, according to that conference presentation, this is not clear, as Group II was doing better than PAO in that case. It could be because Group II has higher NOACK or more solvency than the PAO (the latter of which may not have had solvency-improving POE).

(4) You want the least ash (metal-containing additives such as detergents) possible. That's why dexos1 Gen 2 is a good idea.

(5) There is really no clear answer to which oil is best for intake-valve deposits. Since most dexos1 Gen 2 0W-20's have similar NOACK's and detergent packages, chances are that they will perform very similarly as far as the intake-valve deposits are concerned. Since M1 EP 0W-20 probably contains some POE and its NOACK is higher than what you would be getting with the M1 EP 5W-20, I think it could be a good choice for intake-valve deposits.

 

[1JZ_E46]

I think it’s a reasonable theory, but it’s a very complex issue. I don’t think we should make bright-line conclusions as if they are scientific fact, though. Ultimately, it’s an engine design flaw, not a lunrication problem.

 

[wemay]

Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.


I noticed that as well. Another example: Magnatec has a lower Noack than EDGE.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.



So, using VME as the example, the base oil structure plays the bigger role than just Noack by itself? We just had a discussion here about a newer updated volatility test.

 

[ChrisD46]

*Interesting reading - I previously thought I was doing well running M1 10W30 in my GDI engine . While 5W20 is stamped on the oil fill cap , I should be ok then to run a 0W20 for least intake deposits caused by the oil ?
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
I believe for a GDI engine you would want as low a NOACK oil as possible to keep intake valve deposits at bay (along with top tier gas , shorter OCI's , etc.) with a GDI engine.

Nope, on the contrary, the lower the NOACK and/or higher the base-oil viscosity, the more the intake-valve deposits will be. Alternatively, the higher the NOACK and/or lower the base-oil viscosity, the less the intake-valve deposits will be.

This is because one mechanism of cleaning of the intake-valve deposits is evaporation. If NOACK volatility is low or the base-oil is thick, the oil will spend more time on the valves as it evaporates more slowly, therefore leaving more deposits behind.

Intake-valve and combustion-chamber depo...ts their growth

So, if you want the least intake-valve deposits in a GDI engine, you need to pick up a 0W-20 with higher NOACK. A 10W-30, which has both a thick base oil and low NOACK would be the worst choice as far as the intake-valve deposits are concerned.

From the article: "The most important lubricating-oil component for deposit formation is the base oil. Increasing the high molecular weight (high viscosity) and low volatility content of the oil increases deposit formation."

 

[ChrisD46]

"Pick a dexos1 Gen 2 0W-20 with low ash (low detergent) content (most intake-valve deposits are ash, especially coming from the detergent) and PAO or GTL base oil. I would say Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 is a good choice. PPPP 0W-20, TGMO 0W-20, and Super Tech High Mileage 0W-20 are also good choices, not necessarily in the order written.
* Definitely avoid high-ash (high-SAPS) oils such as ACEA A3/B4, which are detrimental to the intake valves of GDI engines. If you can find ACEA C1 or C4 low-SAPS oils, they would be a good choice, too.
* Go with the thinnest base oil possible (0W-xx), as thicker base oils may have too low NOACK, which increases deposit formation due to decreased volatility (decreased evaporative cleaning), and also have less cleaning ability due to higher aniline points".

*Based on above , would 0W20 Castrol and Valvoline (for example) make poorer choices due to their formulation versus the choices for 0W20 listed above ?

 

[Shannow]

Please remember that the recommendations from that particular electrical engineer/physicist (not lubricant engineer, chemical engineer, mechanical engineer, tribologist, nor engine designer), have spun like a compass on Ken Block's dashboard for the last 5 years or so.

Highest base oil viscosity, (defined by a higher "W" number) was the absolute recommendation only months ago as the saviour of any and every engine.

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Note the conclusions I highlighted. They are saying that the main source of the intake-valve deposits is PCV. However, it's liquid oil (whole oil) coming through PCV as a mist, not evaporated oil (oil vapor). So, the amount of oil coming through PCV has nothing to do with the NOACK volatility...

It sounds like a good oil catch can (OCC) in the PCV line would be a worthwhile investment for GDI/TGDI cars.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

There is no PCV in my 2004 Chevy Colorado 3.5. Lucky me?.... or no?

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Note the conclusions I highlighted. They are saying that the main source of the intake-valve deposits is PCV. However, it's liquid oil (whole oil) coming through PCV as a mist, not evaporated oil (oil vapor). So, the amount of oil coming through PCV has nothing to do with the NOACK volatility...

It sounds like a good oil catch can (OCC) in the PCV line would be a worthwhile investment for GDI/TGDI cars.


I tried that for about six months for two vehicles, and in each car (not the current Sportage but the Sonata 2.4 before it and the Santa Fe), only about a tablespoon of liquid collected. I removed them after that.

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Note the conclusions I highlighted. They are saying that the main source of the intake-valve deposits is PCV. However, it's liquid oil (whole oil) coming through PCV as a mist, not evaporated oil (oil vapor). So, the amount of oil coming through PCV has nothing to do with the NOACK volatility...

It sounds like a good oil catch can (OCC) in the PCV line would be a worthwhile investment for GDI/TGDI cars.


I tried that for about six months for two vehicles, and in each car (not the current Sportage but the Sonata 2.4 before it and the Santa Fe), only about a tablespoon of liquid collected. I removed them after that.

Over what period of time/miles and were the OCCs internally baffled?

 

[wemay]

-6-months
-one vehicle did 9,000 and the other did 8,000
-Two oci each
-yes, the internals were baffled
-red circle is only to show location

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: wemay
-6-months
-one vehicle did 9,000 and the other did 8,000
-Two oci each
-yes, the internals were baffled
-red circle is only to show location

Thanks for the info. I had been thinking about installing one (OCC) but, based on your results, I will probably pass. Besides, some Kia dealers are telling owners that it will void the warranty.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: wemay
-6-months
-one vehicle did 9,000 and the other did 8,000
-Two oci each
-yes, the internals were baffled
-red circle is only to show location

Thanks for the info. I had been thinking about installing one (OCC) but, based on your results, I will probably pass. Besides, some Kia dealers are telling owners that it will void the warranty.


I read a post by an engine tuner (mainly MINI and BMW engines) that said OCCs are useless for intake valve deposits. He says he has seen no difference with or without. Problem is that they simply cannot remove oil mist and vapor effectively from crankcase gasses. The best option would be to vent the PCV system atmospherically, although not exactly legal.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.


That is strange to me, especially for the price they are charging for it.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: wemay
Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.


That is strange to me, especially for the price they are charging for it.





Total speculation but would the price be indicative of the use of more expensive base oil stocks ?

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: wemay
Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.


That is strange to me, especially for the price they are charging for it.


I think we here on bitog are the only ones tying price to Noack and Noack to overall quality of an oil.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: wemay
I think we here on bitog are the only ones tying price to Noack and Noack to overall quality of an oil.


Ha, so true. While in general, there is an inverse relationship between Noack and price, we have to remember that is in general. There are far more factors at play influencing quality and price than Noack. Magnatec has better Noack figures than EDGE, for example.