ARX possible VVT damage

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Solo2driver
Wow, he put a sludge-cleaning product in his engine, and the sludge came off in the filter. Sounds like it worked.

I think this "problem" probably would have occurred with any cleaning product short of using an HDEO or if PU worked as advertised.

Sorry for the attitude, it just seems that he had sludge. He put something in to get rid of it. It worked. He just had a lot of sludge, and probably did not change the filter often enough and ignored another filter/screen. I don't see what the problem is.
+1 That is my opinion too...

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: Solo2driver
Wow, he put a sludge-cleaning product in his engine, and the sludge came off in the filter. Sounds like it worked.

I think this "problem" probably would have occurred with any cleaning product short of using an HDEO or if PU worked as advertised.

Sorry for the attitude, it just seems that he had sludge. He put something in to get rid of it. It worked. He just had a lot of sludge, and probably did not change the filter often enough and ignored another filter/screen. I don't see what the problem is.
+1 That is my opinion too...



Mine as well.

 

[expat]

I feel there is a difference between soft sludge and the (seemingly ) Hard particles we see here. Remember, what we see in the filter has already passed through the oil pump screen! How big are the particles that did not make it through the screen?
Are there STILL particles possibly blocking oil ways?
Could this be a reason why we are told to 'expect' intermittent engine noises during the Arx process?

I use a parts washer with a Stoddard solvent cleaner. I have Soft sludge in the bottom, but never anything Hard.

 

[prax]

Originally Posted By: c3po
I even have one respected member who has given me permission to give out his phone number and e-mail address and he is willing to talk to any BITOG MEMBER about his reasoning on why auto-rx does not work as advertised.


So who is it?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: StevieC

Wow, he put a sludge-cleaning product in his engine, and the sludge came off in the filter. Sounds like it worked.

I think this "problem" probably would have occurred with any cleaning product short of using an HDEO or if PU worked as advertised.

Sorry for the attitude, it just seems that he had sludge. He put something in to get rid of it. It worked. He just had a lot of sludge, and probably did not change the filter often enough and ignored another filter/screen. I don't see what the problem is.
+1 That is my opinion too...



Sorry I don't see it the same way, here is why. The product was designed to "safely" clean an engine, people buy it to "safely" clean an engine. They don't chemically analyze what kind of sludge or varnish they have, or know if hard chunks are going to break off prior to use.

I don't see how you can blame a consumer for buying and trying a product as it was intended to be used to "safely" clean an engine. This is not about bashing a product either. If he added two bottles instead of one, ran the product twice the intended distance, or altered it in some way then the product was not at fault, since it was not used as intended. If the directions were followed, then IMO it is the product and not the user.

Reading through 100's of these threads it seems the directions are always changing. Or people who sell or use the product on customers cars always seem to have a better way of using it, making its proper use confusing to some. I'm pretty certain there were good intentions and proper use by the OP.

As a side note, I never saw hard chunks when doing a cleaning job either, everything was soft and pretty much dissolved. A few people I chatted with off line were also concerned about chunks they found in their filters when using A-Rx.

JMO

 

[cronk]

Originally Posted By: c3po
Originally Posted By: Trav
simply this.. If the product worked as advertised and actually liquefied the junk instead of breaking it off then this issue would never have happened. It is after all advertised as a gentle cleaner without the supposodely negative side effects of so called solvents, it is even claimed in their advertising not to produce chunks.


Auto-Rx® is a proven metal cleaner. It does not change the chemistry of the engine oil or its viscosity. It will not cause foaming and does not interfere with injectors or sensors. Auto-Rx® utilizes engine oil to move through and clean all engine areas that are normally reached by lubrication. It is safe to use and will not cause engine damage. It is carefully formulated to DISSOLVE carbon deposits and sludge so they can be removed by the oil filter or otherwise drained away with the next oil change. These claims are substantiated by many INDEPENDENT/THIRD-PARTY TESTS, and the results are available on this website for your review.

I can attest to auto-rx breaking stuff off in chunks, between 343,000 miles and 367,000 miles which is 24,000 miles of using auto-rx I went through 22 oil filters.

I have now been using MMO between 367,000 miles and now at 381,000 miles and I have been able to do full OCI's without my oil filters showing any signs of chunks since MMO actually liquifies contaniments.

It sure seems like auto-rx acts more like a solvent and MMO actually does what auto-rx claims to do in DISSOLVING DEPOSITS.

I have spoken on the phone with many well respected members on this board who will stay annonymous and they have all said that auto-rx does not work as advertised.

I even have one respected member who has given me permission to give out his phone number and e-mail address and he is willing to talk to any BITOG MEMBER about his reasoning on why auto-rx does not work as advertised.

I have also talked with quite a few people who have business ties with auto-rx and they feel the same way about the products limitations.

I wanted auto-rx to work, there was a time when I believed in the product, but a former auto-rx user turned me onto a product that is not only cheaper but has also worked beyond my expectations. We have 35 LOCKED auto-rx threads here in the Oil Additive Section and that should tell us that many members are not happy with the product.



FYI
The oil filter pics posted on this thread were from my engine.
I ran a MMO run last year and had almost identical looking chunks in the filter.
I think if these kind of hard flaky deposits exist in your engine, it is next to impossible to liquefy them again.
These deposits are usually the result of "coking"
oil sitting on a hot surface, pretty much cooking the oil on.

 

[demarpaint]

Did you run a full qt of MMO for the full OCI? Was it before or after the A-Rx? Many people are using the two products together, or adding MMO during the rinse phase. Just wondering, thanks.

 

[badtlc]

Those pictures are meaningless w/out knowing if that was solid particulate or not. It is too bad the guy didn't scrape some of those off and see if they were soft or not.

As for the OP, ARX doesn't break off hard pieces of anything. Things have to soften before ARX can break the bonds and remove them.

 

[Trav]

These Toyota engines must have a oil passage that runs up to the VVT pre filter,probably to get oil up to that unit ASAP.
In all fairness to the cleaning product this little filter seems much finer than the oil pick up screen itself which is IMO more of a design issue than anything else,in all probability unless the junk was completely liquefied the screen could plug regardless of the product.

Anyone with an engine that uses this small filter may want to pay close attention to it during any cleaning procedure with any product.
After reading about many gun owners using Kreen to clean barrels and my own observations i think Kreen would have dissolved these particles as would BG109 and MMO but that's still no guarantee this little filter would not get plugged.

This proves to me anyway that nothing is 100% safe in all engines no matter what claims are made.
It has been posted hundreds of times here at BITOG that all kinds of strange noises are possible when ARX is used and they are nothing to worry about just keep going.
I also related this to him based on this information but now know that is not always the case.

It has been posted hundreds of times that these noises came from parts that have not seen lubrication a long time and are now seeing oil for the first time in eons as the reason for the noise.
It now appears that parts that have had lubrication and now have only little or none because of plugged or partially plugged passages could also be a reason as in this case.

I see some ARX supporters here taking the old stance that if something goes wrong lets blame the owner not the product.
STOP! Go to the ARX website and read it.They promote safe cleaning and even advocate using it for severe sludge issues.


" The inexpensive solvent flushes that you find in the auto parts store use powerful solvents that can be destructive to your engine and seals. These products are "shock solvents." They can only be kept in the engine a short time and have a tendency to break off large chunks of sludge that can get trapped in the engine oil passages. Clogged oil passages can cause engine failure. Oil is also negatively affected by the introduction of a solvent; it changes the chemistry of the oil, whereas Auto-Rx® does not. Auto-Rx® works slowly, methodically, and efficiently and will take approximately 1,500 miles to do its job. Engine deposits are formed layer by layer; they should be removed layer by layer. Auto-Rx® does exactly that."

He did 2 clean and so called rinse for a total of a little over 6k,how pray tell is this his fault?
You can blame Toyota for putting this little filter in there or me for assuring him it was safe or the ARX website for declaring it SAFE but he is not responsible.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm still scratching my head trying to understand how the user who followed directions is to blame. Amsoil comes to mind here. They had to modify filter recommendations for certain Honda and Toyota engines because the filters were failing long before their life expectancy. They saw a problem and addressed it, no one is prefect. Perhaps a few disclaimers are in order for certain engine applications with A-Rx?

As far as engine noise during clean and rinse, that would frighten me. Odd noises or noise that was never present that happens during a treatment IMO is not a good thing. An occasional tick or tap is nothing, an oil light or low pressure, knocking, etc is something to be concerned with I would think.

 

[StevieC]

I'm not blaming the user... I was making a point that the Auto-RX did its job and released the junk. Unfortunately it caused a problem in doing so because it couldn't "Liquefy" the junk.

I think no matter what the user used it would have caused this problem eventually because the engine was gunked up.

The only way would have been to disassemble the engine and clean it manually.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
An occasional tick or tap is nothing, an oil light or low pressure, knocking, etc is something to be concerned with I would think.


A blocked oil passage (after the oil pump) would not show as Low oil pressure. No warning lights would show, and no 'Low' reading would show on any gauge.
I would not say an occasional Knock is (necessarily) nothing!, Oil starvation without noise CAN occur, A knock would indicate (to me) an almost TOTAL loss of lubrication to a bearing or pressure sensitive component.

 

[cronk]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Did you run a full qt of MMO for the full OCI? Was it before or after the A-Rx? Many people are using the two products together, or adding MMO during the rinse phase. Just wondering, thanks.


I quart MMO for the last 500 miles of the oil change.
This was last year, before any Auto-RX.
The chunks of stuff looked identical to what I am seeing now with Auto-RX that I am currently running.
They look like coffee grounds, they are hard but can be crushed between your fingers.

 

[StevieC]

Carbon?

 

[demarpaint]

MMO was really not designed to be used for 500 miles before an oil change. In my experiences it didn't leave chunks, it did a nice job of dissolving things, or making them soft to the touch. But that was after a full qt for a full OCI. I do use it from time to time for 500-1000 miles in an already clean engine to keep it clean. Truth is we'll never know now what really happened in your case.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: StevieC


I think no matter what the user used it would have caused this problem eventually because the engine was gunked up.

The only way would have been to disassemble the engine and clean it manually.



Given how fine this filter is i can agree with this.
Even in normal use maybe owners of engines with this may want to service it as a matter of preventive maintenance given the reported sludge issues with some of these Toyota engines.

 

[sciphi]

So, in conclusion, ARX hastened the onset of a problem that was waiting to happen, ie, the sludge getting trapped in this itty-bitty little filter?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Trav

Given how fine this filter is i can agree with this.
Even in normal use maybe owners of engines with this may want to service it as a matter of preventive maintenance given the reported sludge issues with some of these Toyota engines.



Agreed.

Originally Posted By: sciphi
So, in conclusion, ARX hastened the onset of a problem that was waiting to happen, ie, the sludge getting trapped in this itty-bitty little filter?


IMO, yes... And it also proved that ARX works for all those naysayers out there even if it didn't dissolve it.

For all we know it's chunks of carbon and not oily-gel type of gunk.

 

[demarpaint]

Then maybe A-Rx should caution users of the product when used in these engines.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Then maybe A-Rx should caution users of the product when used in these engines.
I would agree with that.