are 5w-20 oils now being used in engines that previously ran 5w-30?

[1 FMF]

this a question I've been meaning to ask. Sort of in reference to the other thread here about which automaker will be next.
My father-in-law has a chrysler 300C on order, with the 5.7L hemi, and as was stated the engine calls for 5w-20 oil.
Is this motor any different from the 5.7L hemi of the past year or two? And didn't the previous 5.7L's call for 5w30? Didn't the dodge hemi hit the market before the 5w-20 revolution?
Not to mention a few engines by ford, maybe the v-8's in the trucks if I remember correctly, which always ran on 30 weight. If that's the case, then doesn't this prove that the move to 5w-20 isn't based on the engine (since the design hasn't changed) and more to do with EPA/CAFE/fuel economy?

 

[TR3-2001SE]

No,Yes,Yes and Yes.

 

[T-Keith]

yes Ford backword recomended lots of engines to 5w20. They now recomend 5w20 for 4.6Ls back to 92 for instance.

-T

 

[TallPaul]

I think you are right. It is all CAFE. And dealerships are retro-specfying the 5w20 and I heard installing it in vehicles that originally called for 5w30/10w30.

If the dealership changes your oil, do you know what grade they are installing?

 

[JohnnyO]

Click Here For Ford 5w-20 Recommended Vehicles

Note also that the Motorcraft brand 5w-20 is a synthetic blend and not a straight dino oil.

 

[SteveD2]

Yeah, this is one of the reasons nobody here much likes 5w20. It's just too thin, even manufacturers agree. (Because they used to recommend something thicker for the same engines) I certainly wouldn't be caught dead with it in any of my engines...whether it's a little old Honda or a 5.7 Hemi...

 

[1 FMF]

quote:

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Originally posted by TR3-2001SE:
No,Yes,Yes and Yes.

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ok,

I don't think it's ever been explicity stated.

Therefore, am I correct in saying:

using a 5w30 oil in an engine, at least up until now, which calls for 5w-20 is in no way detrimental. And furthermore, no dealer should have the right to void a warranty for doing so

just wanted to get this out in the open if it hasn't already been

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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Note also that the Motorcraft brand 5w-20 is a synthetic blend and not a straight dino oil.

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Yep. Its a Group III with Group II.

 

[TomJones76]

quote:

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Originally posted by ZmOz:
Yeah, this is one of the reasons nobody here much likes 5w20. It's just too thin, even manufacturers agree. (Because they used to recommend something thicker for the same engines) I certainly wouldn't be caught dead with it in any of my engines...whether it's a little old Honda or a 5.7 Hemi...

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ZmOZ,
I have to challenge your assertion that the manufacturers "agree that 5w20 is too thin."
The fact that they previously suggested 5W30 might mean 5W30 was better... but you could also conclude that now Ford and Honda are *smarter* than they used to be, and realize that now that they have more research data, they had previously erred in reccomending 5W30 rather than 5W20.
Ask yourself why Ford would reccomend 5W20 retroactively for a 1992 Ford Crown Victoria? Is there any selfish incentive for them to do that? A 1992 vehicle certainly has no retroactive affect on Ford's CAFE standings today.

 

[TomJones76]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1 FMF:

quote:

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Originally posted by TR3-2001SE:
No,Yes,Yes and Yes.

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ok,

I don't think it's ever been explicity stated.

Therefore, am I correct in saying:

using a 5w30 oil in an engine, at least up until now, which calls for 5w-20 is in no way detrimental. And furthermore, no dealer should have the right to void a warranty for doing so

just wanted to get this out in the open if it hasn't already been

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Your question is arguable. We have seen good enough results with 5W20 UOAs (Used Oil Analyses) that you could argue that 5W20 is more suited for the engines it is reccomended reccomended on than 5W30. That "more suited" is a trivial difference though, we're talking 3 PPM less of wear metals, so it's basically trivial.
Regarding the statement you made as a corrolary to your question, "furthermore, no dealer should have the right to void a warranty for [using 5W30 in your 5W20 vehicle]", I would remark that you are correct. If a dealer tried, I'd point out that most automakers who reccomend 5W20 in a given vehicle here reccomend dramatically different motor oils for the same motor overseas, frequently in countries with similar weather to ours.

 

[Tree Hugger]

It's also true that the motor manufacturer's had huge input on the required specs for 5W20, and that it's possible the (new) high quality 5W20 oils are at least equal to, or better than older specs of 5W30...

 

[SteveD2]

quote:

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Originally posted by TomJones76:

quote:

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Originally posted by ZmOz:
Yeah, this is one of the reasons nobody here much likes 5w20. It's just too thin, even manufacturers agree. (Because they used to recommend something thicker for the same engines) I certainly wouldn't be caught dead with it in any of my engines...whether it's a little old Honda or a 5.7 Hemi...

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ZmOZ,
I have to challenge your assertion that the manufacturers "agree that 5w20 is too thin."
The fact that they previously suggested 5W30 might mean 5W30 was better... but you could also conclude that now Ford and Honda are *smarter* than they used to be, and realize that now that they have more research data, they had previously erred in reccomending 5W30 rather than 5W20.
Ask yourself why Ford would reccomend 5W20 retroactively for a 1992 Ford Crown Victoria? Is there any selfish incentive for them to do that? A 1992 vehicle certainly has no retroactive affect on Ford's CAFE standings today.

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I'm sorry, but there's no way in **** a 5w20 will ever be BETTER. I don't know why they are now recommending it in older engines, but it certainly isn't to provide less wear. They couldn't care less how long your 1992 for is going to last. 5w20 might be giving some good UOA's in some engines, but I'd be willing to bet 5w30 would be even better...

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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I'm sorry, but there's no way in **** a 5w20 will ever be BETTER. I don't know why they are now recommending it in older engines, but it certainly isn't to provide less wear. They couldn't care less how long your 1992 for is going to last. 5w20 might be giving some good UOA's in some engines, but I'd be willing to bet 5w30 would be even better...

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Do you have any data to back up your assertion? I suspect not. It sounds like you have preconceived notions and are willing to do anything to hold onto them, period. The move from 20W-50 to 10w30 to 5w30 as common summer oils in the US engendered the exact same chest thumping defiances at every step along the way.

The engines which are specified for 5W-20 oil use have so far been turning in exemplary UOA results. It amuses me that, for some people, when UOA results support a preconceived notion they are taken as hard evidence but when the results do not match the preconceived notions then the UOA results are discounted.

To answer the original poster's question: Yes, there are many engine designs which were once specified in the US as requiring 5w30 which now specify 5W-20, particularly from Honda and Ford. In many cases these same engines spec. something other than 5W-20 oils when sold outside of North America.

John

[ May 27, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: jthorner ]

 

[mikemc]

What I've taken away from the discussions and UOA posted here is this: use 5w20 backed up by service logs and receipts at correct intervals while the vehicle is under warranty. It certainly won't hurt a vehicle spec'd for 5w20 and it gives an auto maker no leg to stand on if you have an engine failure. After the warranty is over, use a 5w30 or other oil if you like or keep using 5w20 if you're happy with that. I have seen absolutely NO hard data to back up the beliefs that 5w20 is too thin to protect an engine that is spec'd for 5w20.

 

[SteveD2]

Has anybody done a UOA on a 5w20 and then 5w30 in the same engine and oil? Again, I'd be willing to bet alot of money the 5w30 would be better. I know it's most certainly not going to be the other way around. Not to mention most idiots that drive cars blindly follow the 7500 mile recommendations, I'd hate to see how thin a 5w20 is after 7500 miles in a V8...

[ May 27, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: ZmOz ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well one thing to look at is Cafe. In the Dodge Rams(Truck) CAFE does not apply so I am woundering if they are running 5W30 or 10W30 in them. In the cars CAFE is a big deal so they bring out the recomendation for 5W20. Ford is on record saying that it was solely for Cafe reasons!

P.S. I am still waiting for fleets of 5W20 vechiles to start showing up with at least 200,000 miles on them with nothing but 5W20. I suspect that most places are still useing 5W30 and 10W30 so it is going to be a while!

 

[sbc350gearhead]

Some members have run 5w30 in their 5w20 spec vehicles........and in some cases, the wear increased. I do not own a vehicle that calls for 5w20, but if I did.........I wouldn't hesitate to use it. I don't see much difference in using a shear stable 20 weight vs. a non shear stable 30 weight that shears down to a 20 in a couple thousand miles. I have allways been a "thinner is better" advocate, but initially, I was very skeptical of the 20's..........but no longer.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by ZmOz:
Yeah, this is one of the reasons nobody here much likes 5w20.

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Nobody here likes it? Where is "here"? If you mean this board, you need to read a little more.

 

[Surprise]

quote:

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Originally posted by ZmOz:
Has anybody done a UOA on a 5w20 and then 5w30 in the same engine and oil? Again, I'd be willing to bet alot of money the 5w30 would be better. I know it's most certainly not going to be the other way around. Not to mention most idiots that drive cars blindly follow the 7500 mile recommendations, I'd hate to see how thin a 5w20 is after 7500 miles in a V8...

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Here are a few examples:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001506
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000785
http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=26

Are you willing to bet a lot of money now?

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

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Originally posted by TomJones76:
Ask yourself why Ford would reccomend 5W20 retroactively for a 1992 Ford Crown Victoria? Is there any selfish incentive for them to do that? A 1992 vehicle certainly has no retroactive affect on Ford's CAFE standings today.

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Then they only have to stock one type of PCEO at the dealerships.

Advances the demise of the older cars so more newer vehicles are sold.

Brownie points with the CAFE folks.

Yeah, I know, these reasons are weak, so on the other hand:

Maybe the 5w20 performs better than (and is thus better than) the collapsable 5w30. I'd rather see them recommend 10w30 for the older vehicles if 5w30 is not very good, but of course they can't go that direction due to past CAFE agreements.