Any old Ford guys familiar with this system? Pre-CEL
Anyone familiar with EEC-IV ?
- Thread starter Johnny248
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I am very familiar, whats up?
Pretty famaliar, my old Bronco II had it, now my Explorer does too, my friends 88 Mustang has it and so does my friend's 95 Mystique.
Whats up?
Whats up?
Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate it, not a Ford guy.
Quick details. This is '95 Ford 5.0 HO EFI Marine engine. Everything on it is Ford. Ford part numbers, Ford intake, Ford ECU (EEC-IV) and even has the EEC diag port. This engine is a MAP engine, not a MAF:
Engine has....
TPS
MAP
Engine Temp
EEC-IV
Standard Ford TFI Module
Standard 302 Dist, has the noid plug to pull out while setting timing.
It is essentially a roller cam, gt40 head, efi 5.0, looks just like a mustang engine, but it does not have a MAF sensor.
Here is my concerns....
It sounds ridiculous, but my boat seems like it is using a lot of fuel. (I know, boats use a lot of fuel) but it seems like it is burning more fuel than it did when I first bought it.
New Parts:
Cap,Rotor,Plugs,Wires
Accell TFI Module
Ignition Coil
TPS , set to 1.0v per the Mustang Guys
High Pressure Fuel Pump
Low Pressure Fuel Pump
Ran a BG in-the-rail fuel injection cleaning.
The Accell TFI is supposed to be a performance upgrade, who knows, other than that it is all stock except for a upper intake spacer.
I just purchased a new MAP sensor, and Engine Temp sensor, because I would imagine with this engine, fuel is determined by tps+map+engine temp. I just installed those two new sensors, ran it in the drive way but have not used the boat yet.
The only other reason I could imagine it would use more fuel is if it is running rich from leaky injectors or something, but I would assume that I would have some driveability problems if that was the case. Last year I put my fuel pressure gauge on it and it didn't seem to leak down, fuel pressure was with in spec.
Is there any other reason why I would be running rich or burning more fuel than the parts I already replaced? I wish there was a way to monitor air/fuel but I have no o2 sensors lol
Is there something I could be missing? Could the TPS setting or ignition timing have any effect on this? I can't remember if my timing is stock, or not. It is possible that it may be advanced 2deg or so. I will have to check that.
Sorry for the long post, I just don't know of any other issue that could cause richer fuel mixture. (assuming that it actually is running rich)
Thanks for help or ideas anyone may have.
Quick details. This is '95 Ford 5.0 HO EFI Marine engine. Everything on it is Ford. Ford part numbers, Ford intake, Ford ECU (EEC-IV) and even has the EEC diag port. This engine is a MAP engine, not a MAF:
Engine has....
TPS
MAP
Engine Temp
EEC-IV
Standard Ford TFI Module
Standard 302 Dist, has the noid plug to pull out while setting timing.
It is essentially a roller cam, gt40 head, efi 5.0, looks just like a mustang engine, but it does not have a MAF sensor.
Here is my concerns....
It sounds ridiculous, but my boat seems like it is using a lot of fuel. (I know, boats use a lot of fuel) but it seems like it is burning more fuel than it did when I first bought it.
New Parts:
Cap,Rotor,Plugs,Wires
Accell TFI Module
Ignition Coil
TPS , set to 1.0v per the Mustang Guys
High Pressure Fuel Pump
Low Pressure Fuel Pump
Ran a BG in-the-rail fuel injection cleaning.
The Accell TFI is supposed to be a performance upgrade, who knows, other than that it is all stock except for a upper intake spacer.
I just purchased a new MAP sensor, and Engine Temp sensor, because I would imagine with this engine, fuel is determined by tps+map+engine temp. I just installed those two new sensors, ran it in the drive way but have not used the boat yet.
The only other reason I could imagine it would use more fuel is if it is running rich from leaky injectors or something, but I would assume that I would have some driveability problems if that was the case. Last year I put my fuel pressure gauge on it and it didn't seem to leak down, fuel pressure was with in spec.
Is there any other reason why I would be running rich or burning more fuel than the parts I already replaced? I wish there was a way to monitor air/fuel but I have no o2 sensors lol
Is there something I could be missing? Could the TPS setting or ignition timing have any effect on this? I can't remember if my timing is stock, or not. It is possible that it may be advanced 2deg or so. I will have to check that.
Sorry for the long post, I just don't know of any other issue that could cause richer fuel mixture. (assuming that it actually is running rich)
Thanks for help or ideas anyone may have.
Last edited:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
10 degrees is stock. Sounds like an '87/88 5.0L (Speed Density) with the O2's deleted.
ACT = Air Charge Temperature Sensor. Should be in the intake manifold.
ECT = Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor. You said you've already replaced this.
Those two, in addition to the MAP, are what determines how much fuel is delivered.
Now, first things first.
1. Put a vacuum gauge on it. Does it have the stock HO camshaft? If so, it should be pulling around 19 inches of vacuum at idle. If it isn't, then it has a vacuum leak, which would explain the increased fuel consumption.
The system is VERY simple. And, as you've noticed, it doesn't have a lot of components. Since you have no O2's, it will be running in Open Loop all the time (out of base table) so all it uses is sensor feedback to determine fuel delivery; there are no learned trims because the O2's aren't there to allow it.
MAP sensors on these things rarely fail. The ACCEL TFI is garbage, replace it with a Motorcraft one unless you want to get stranded in the middle of the lake. And if you are really anal, keep a spare one somewhere dry.
There is NO TPS "setting". That's a myth that has plagued the Mustang community forever, and was "discovered" by the natural deterioration of the POTS themselves, which lead to flat-spots. When you "adjust" the TPS, and move it past the flat spot that has developed off-idle, the car would magically have felt like it had more power. Replacing the sensor with a new one would have achieved the same result. This can be easily verified with the use of an analog multimeter which will allow you to view the TPS "voltage curve".
The factory hysteresis range for the sensor is something like .62-1.13V. It reads the voltage whenever you start the engine and that is used as the "base" value; closed throttle. So the system is "zeroed" every time the power is cycled. You can't "set" anything, as base is just a reference point and everything above it is simply relative.
If you've already "adjusted" it, drop it down to .90v. With the increased voltage of the alternator with the engine running, I've seen a TPS that reads 1.05v KOEO jump to 1.15v (outside the hysteresis range)with the engine running. Which caused a pretty interesting running condition, since the ECM assumed the TPS was bad at that point.
The GUFB is the "EEC-IV" bible. Written by Ford, and all of this is detailed within its (incredibly boring, and insanely numerous) pages.
Also, it is common to bump the timing up to 14-15 degrees when running premium fuel. And this provides a slight increase in power.
ACT = Air Charge Temperature Sensor. Should be in the intake manifold.
ECT = Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor. You said you've already replaced this.
Those two, in addition to the MAP, are what determines how much fuel is delivered.
Now, first things first.
1. Put a vacuum gauge on it. Does it have the stock HO camshaft? If so, it should be pulling around 19 inches of vacuum at idle. If it isn't, then it has a vacuum leak, which would explain the increased fuel consumption.
The system is VERY simple. And, as you've noticed, it doesn't have a lot of components. Since you have no O2's, it will be running in Open Loop all the time (out of base table) so all it uses is sensor feedback to determine fuel delivery; there are no learned trims because the O2's aren't there to allow it.
MAP sensors on these things rarely fail. The ACCEL TFI is garbage, replace it with a Motorcraft one unless you want to get stranded in the middle of the lake. And if you are really anal, keep a spare one somewhere dry.
There is NO TPS "setting". That's a myth that has plagued the Mustang community forever, and was "discovered" by the natural deterioration of the POTS themselves, which lead to flat-spots. When you "adjust" the TPS, and move it past the flat spot that has developed off-idle, the car would magically have felt like it had more power. Replacing the sensor with a new one would have achieved the same result. This can be easily verified with the use of an analog multimeter which will allow you to view the TPS "voltage curve".
The factory hysteresis range for the sensor is something like .62-1.13V. It reads the voltage whenever you start the engine and that is used as the "base" value; closed throttle. So the system is "zeroed" every time the power is cycled. You can't "set" anything, as base is just a reference point and everything above it is simply relative.
If you've already "adjusted" it, drop it down to .90v. With the increased voltage of the alternator with the engine running, I've seen a TPS that reads 1.05v KOEO jump to 1.15v (outside the hysteresis range)with the engine running. Which caused a pretty interesting running condition, since the ECM assumed the TPS was bad at that point.
The GUFB is the "EEC-IV" bible. Written by Ford, and all of this is detailed within its (incredibly boring, and insanely numerous) pages.
Also, it is common to bump the timing up to 14-15 degrees when running premium fuel. And this provides a slight increase in power.
Read the plugs and see if they tell the story of running rich. also any change of a fuel leak from the tank or lines?
Normal 5,0s will have marks on the distributor base and block. Match the marks= 10 degrees (with SPOUT connector removed).
Simple stuff- Verify timing, hard timing and computer advance with the SPOUT connector plugged in. With no load on engine verify it get to ~ the 30 degree mark when engine RPM is increased to about 2500 RPM. Very possible to have a flakey EEC module that isn't advancing timing. With no ck eng light you never know.
Verify full vac to the MAP sensor.
Pull codes.
Verify rail pressure is to spec.
High TP voltage will make it run rich, same for bad MAP vacuum, high rail pressure, retarded timing.
Hard to tell with some custom calibrated system like this with no O2 feedback. Without a code it is down to checking one thing at a time to see what is out of spec.
Simple stuff- Verify timing, hard timing and computer advance with the SPOUT connector plugged in. With no load on engine verify it get to ~ the 30 degree mark when engine RPM is increased to about 2500 RPM. Very possible to have a flakey EEC module that isn't advancing timing. With no ck eng light you never know.
Verify full vac to the MAP sensor.
Pull codes.
Verify rail pressure is to spec.
High TP voltage will make it run rich, same for bad MAP vacuum, high rail pressure, retarded timing.
Hard to tell with some custom calibrated system like this with no O2 feedback. Without a code it is down to checking one thing at a time to see what is out of spec.
GT40 heads are what the Explorers had, no? The Mustangs (FI) had E7 heads, and the cheapo head upgrade was to find a wrecked explorer.... Hope this helps you guys...
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Also, it is common to bump the timing up to 14-15 degrees when running premium fuel. And this provides a slight increase in power.
I'm thinking if he's only running 2 degrees advance like he said, a bump up to 10 degrees should give him some fuel economy. What you think?
Also, it is common to bump the timing up to 14-15 degrees when running premium fuel. And this provides a slight increase in power.
I'm thinking if he's only running 2 degrees advance like he said, a bump up to 10 degrees should give him some fuel economy. What you think?
Thanks guys. I didn't even think about the air charge sensor. I'll grab one of those also lol.
I've read the TPS myth thing also, but never really knew the truth. I will check vacuum and check timing later on.
As far the heads, I'm told they are GT40 heads, they have the three bars to identify them.
Also, what is #25 on this image?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Fuel-Syst...-view_id.311978
I've read the TPS myth thing also, but never really knew the truth. I will check vacuum and check timing later on.
As far the heads, I'm told they are GT40 heads, they have the three bars to identify them.
Also, what is #25 on this image?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Fuel-Syst...-view_id.311978
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: hardcore302
GT40 heads are what the Explorers had, no? The Mustangs (FI) had E7 heads, and the cheapo head upgrade was to find a wrecked explorer.... Hope this helps you guys...
GT40's came on the 96, early 97 Explorers. They also came on the 1st gen Lightning, and the 93 Cobra (and Cobra R).
97+ Explorers came with GT40P heads, which are different.
I have a set of quite well worked GT40's on my one 302, ported by Cobra Racing in Toronto. They did a phenomenal job.
GT40 heads are what the Explorers had, no? The Mustangs (FI) had E7 heads, and the cheapo head upgrade was to find a wrecked explorer.... Hope this helps you guys...
GT40's came on the 96, early 97 Explorers. They also came on the 1st gen Lightning, and the 93 Cobra (and Cobra R).
97+ Explorers came with GT40P heads, which are different.
I have a set of quite well worked GT40's on my one 302, ported by Cobra Racing in Toronto. They did a phenomenal job.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Also, it is common to bump the timing up to 14-15 degrees when running premium fuel. And this provides a slight increase in power.
I'm thinking if he's only running 2 degrees advance like he said, a bump up to 10 degrees should give him some fuel economy. What you think?
I had made the assumption that he meant 2 degrees advanced from the base setting, which is 10 degrees.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Also, it is common to bump the timing up to 14-15 degrees when running premium fuel. And this provides a slight increase in power.
I'm thinking if he's only running 2 degrees advance like he said, a bump up to 10 degrees should give him some fuel economy. What you think?
I had made the assumption that he meant 2 degrees advanced from the base setting, which is 10 degrees.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Thanks guys. I didn't even think about the air charge sensor. I'll grab one of those also lol.
I've read the TPS myth thing also, but never really knew the truth. I will check vacuum and check timing later on.
As far the heads, I'm told they are GT40 heads, they have the three bars to identify them.
Also, what is #25 on this image?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Fuel-Syst...-view_id.311978
I apparently can't view that image from outside the USA
And yes, three bars = GT40's.
Thanks guys. I didn't even think about the air charge sensor. I'll grab one of those also lol.
I've read the TPS myth thing also, but never really knew the truth. I will check vacuum and check timing later on.
As far the heads, I'm told they are GT40 heads, they have the three bars to identify them.
Also, what is #25 on this image?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Fuel-Syst...-view_id.311978
I apparently can't view that image from outside the USA
And yes, three bars = GT40's.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Thanks guys. I didn't even think about the air charge sensor. I'll grab one of those also lol.
I've read the TPS myth thing also, but never really knew the truth. I will check vacuum and check timing later on.
As far the heads, I'm told they are GT40 heads, they have the three bars to identify them.
Also, what is #25 on this image?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Fuel-Syst...-view_id.311978
I apparently can't view that image from outside the USA
And yes, three bars = GT40's.
That's crazy, sorry. I think I figured it out, it is a nother sensor in line of the coolant, must be for the overheat alarm o the engine.
And yes,3 bars on the accessorie side.
Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Thanks guys. I didn't even think about the air charge sensor. I'll grab one of those also lol.
I've read the TPS myth thing also, but never really knew the truth. I will check vacuum and check timing later on.
As far the heads, I'm told they are GT40 heads, they have the three bars to identify them.
Also, what is #25 on this image?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Fuel-Syst...-view_id.311978
I apparently can't view that image from outside the USA
And yes, three bars = GT40's.
That's crazy, sorry. I think I figured it out, it is a nother sensor in line of the coolant, must be for the overheat alarm o the engine.
And yes,3 bars on the accessorie side.
ahh, gt40p heads. my bad.
So everything has been changed not.
Tps
Map
Engine Temp
Air Intake Temp
Starts up and runs fine in the driveway. I'll fill 'er up and try to monitor consumption over the weekend on the water.
Back to the EEC-IV thing. I've seen some inexpensive Code Scanners for that Ford System. Given my setup, would it be do me any good to get one of those? Is there any way to wire in a led or something for check engine light? Or do they simply just not have one?
Tps
Map
Engine Temp
Air Intake Temp
Starts up and runs fine in the driveway. I'll fill 'er up and try to monitor consumption over the weekend on the water.
Back to the EEC-IV thing. I've seen some inexpensive Code Scanners for that Ford System. Given my setup, would it be do me any good to get one of those? Is there any way to wire in a led or something for check engine light? Or do they simply just not have one?
Maybe your boat is succumbing to ethanol mixed fuel, which is worse than pure gas.
You can check codes with a analog multimeter at the port, but who knows what codes are what are for your oddball set up?
Did you change your prop? That'll make a big change.
Are your plugs sooty/black when they were not before? That indicates engine tuning or other mechanical problems.
You can check codes with a analog multimeter at the port, but who knows what codes are what are for your oddball set up?
Did you change your prop? That'll make a big change.
Are your plugs sooty/black when they were not before? That indicates engine tuning or other mechanical problems.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Depends on whether they've modified the programming or not. Does it have the connector for the code reader?
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