I think fuel prices need to stabilize before the average American will consider a large SUV. GM was doing well until fuel prices killed large truck and SUV sales. However, I really like the new Impala (31 mpg highway), but the profit isn't anywhere near what they were making on the SUVs and fullsize trucks.quote:
Originally posted by GoldenRod:
There are over 12,000 of us BITOGers on this board. If each of us were to purchase a brand new 2007 Chevy Tahoe, we could single handedly save General Motors. What you guys say?
Another dagger in GM
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My 70-something folk have been GM all their lives. Until recently. I suggested they at least drive a Forester. Now, they are 100% Subaru fans. Love it so much they ask me why I never enlightened them before. Whether or not the Subaru will turn out to be as reliable as the GM's they had (recurring problems with automatic windows, suspension, trim, brakes, alignment), the ergonomics are much better. I always HATED to ride in one of their GM's with the crappy seating...no lumbar support, mushy seat and back cushions, funky seatback angles, etc.
If the unions REALLY think that "as GM goes, so goes the country", they are about to find out we can do just fine without them. It's myoptic, vain, and wrong. Dinosauers died out because they couldn't adjust fast enough, but the rest of the world got along just fine without them.
If the unions REALLY think that "as GM goes, so goes the country", they are about to find out we can do just fine without them. It's myoptic, vain, and wrong. Dinosauers died out because they couldn't adjust fast enough, but the rest of the world got along just fine without them.
Wow! With all of the "trouble prone vehicles" GM is producing my case must be some sort of statistical throwback. Lets see.... '93 Cavilier over 245 thousand miles 1 set of fuel injectors, tires, belts, hoses,1 alternator,1 rocker cover gasket,1 battery,and routene maintenance. I'd take this vehicle as is over any '97-'03 Camry even with low miles (sludge). '96 Caprice over 170 thousand miles 1 alternator, and some plastic interior pieces needed glueing back on, plus routine maintenance. 2 '04 Cavaliers one has 34 thousand the other has 54 thousand. ZERO problems from either,routine maintenance on both. I just purchased an '06 HHR this thing is perfect from my point of view no rattles, or squeaks, ample power,EXCELLENT sound system, and it is comfortable with almost undetectable road noise. I have been getting a combined average of 29.1 MPG over the last few tankfulls. Cheap plastic aside I don't think the imports even come close to matching the value offered by the Chevy's I have owned and driven. I see newer Camry's on a daily basis that are leaving a blue trail to show evidence of their passing. Lots of my friends at work drive imports most of them will admit to having their cars back to the dealership every few months for something or other. I know because I am the one who quite often gives them a ride to pick up their cars. It has been too long for me to remember(years) when I last took any of My Chevy's to a mechanic. Something is way out of perspective with the perception of perfection concerning imports. The media seems to give a pass to obvious glaring quality concerns with imports, yet the domestics get nit picked to death IMHO. Yes none of them are perfect and yes some of the imports are assembled right here in the good 'ol US of A. But a foriegn owned corporation owes it's loyalty ultimately to whoom? I admit that the general has an image problem, and I hope this is soon resolved. Sorry for the rant. I feel better now. Rickey.
Whats an import? I think Toyota imports the 4-Runner and Landcruiser the rest are built here.
Rickey one only has to hang around here a few months and note that your experience is not normal. Maybe its GM's Chinese engines or Mexican drivetrains thats helping them?
Rickey one only has to hang around here a few months and note that your experience is not normal. Maybe its GM's Chinese engines or Mexican drivetrains thats helping them?
His experience is the same as mine. And by the way average Toyota sold in the USA has a 40% domestic parts content, GM is over 80%.quote:
Originally posted by Amkeer:
Whats an import? I think Toyota imports the 4-Runner and Landcruiser the rest are built here.
Rickey one only has to hang around here a few months and note that your experience is not normal. Maybe its GM's Chinese engines or Mexican drivetrains thats helping them?
If you ever talked to any local independent mechanics, you'll find who keeps them in business. My conversation with them always points to GM as their favorite. Just a data point.
"GM is producing my case must be some sort of statistical throwback. Lets see.... '93 Cavilier over 245 thousand miles 1 set of fuel injectors, tires, belts, hoses,1 alternator,1 rocker cover gasket,1 battery,and routene maintenance. I'd take this vehicle as is over any '97-'03 Camry even with low miles (sludge). '96 Caprice over 170 thousand miles 1 alternator, and some plastic interior pieces needed glueing back on, plus routine maintenance. 2 '04 Cavaliers one has 34 thousand the other has 54 thousand. ZERO problems from either,routine maintenance on both."
...so says the guy who has NOT ever owned a quality import. Bottom line, for me, is not the amount (lack) of attention and maintenance it needs, but what the car is like as far as comfort, road manners safety and long-term integrity. Holding up a Cavalier as the pinacle of automotive manufacture is frankly, a joke. When I think of GM, I think of cracked vinyl seats, peeled paint, sloppy suspensions, hanging exhaust, horrible locks, trim and accesories. Also, what's up with the window cranks that go the opposite way as imports? It's not a matter of preferance, or random design...literally they go the wrong way! How have I determined this? Well, it takes more effort/energy to move a window up rather than down, yes? Now, which bodily action makes more mechanical energy more easily, a winding (up) motion like curling a dumbell, or the opposite winding (down) motion ? Perhaps GM can learn something from the dumbells.
Who would want to buy a new car that looks like this in under 10 years? I don't care how little maintenance it has needed, I would not own it ir drive it. I have experienced the horror of driving a GM like this, my Aunt's. Her and her husband have NO IDEA what a good car is...the steering felt like it had a spring wound around the column. The have a Malibu now that has shed a good portion of it's trim and has electrical problems. No body panel lines up with adjacent panels and the paint is near-peeling. No wonder the budget-priced imports are making inroads in the US market, all they have to do is make a offer a slightly better car than a Cavalier.
[ March 19, 2006, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Auto-Union ]
...so says the guy who has NOT ever owned a quality import. Bottom line, for me, is not the amount (lack) of attention and maintenance it needs, but what the car is like as far as comfort, road manners safety and long-term integrity. Holding up a Cavalier as the pinacle of automotive manufacture is frankly, a joke. When I think of GM, I think of cracked vinyl seats, peeled paint, sloppy suspensions, hanging exhaust, horrible locks, trim and accesories. Also, what's up with the window cranks that go the opposite way as imports? It's not a matter of preferance, or random design...literally they go the wrong way! How have I determined this? Well, it takes more effort/energy to move a window up rather than down, yes? Now, which bodily action makes more mechanical energy more easily, a winding (up) motion like curling a dumbell, or the opposite winding (down) motion ? Perhaps GM can learn something from the dumbells.
Who would want to buy a new car that looks like this in under 10 years? I don't care how little maintenance it has needed, I would not own it ir drive it. I have experienced the horror of driving a GM like this, my Aunt's. Her and her husband have NO IDEA what a good car is...the steering felt like it had a spring wound around the column. The have a Malibu now that has shed a good portion of it's trim and has electrical problems. No body panel lines up with adjacent panels and the paint is near-peeling. No wonder the budget-priced imports are making inroads in the US market, all they have to do is make a offer a slightly better car than a Cavalier.
[ March 19, 2006, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Auto-Union ]
Used to be a hardcore GM fan still own two 68 Camaros. But after some of the GM cars I owned in the late 70s and Early's 80s convinced me someone had to make a better mouse trap.
Bought my 1st Toyota in 1986 and its been Toyota and Honda since. Just bought a 06 Toyota Tundra it is built in Indiana with 85% US parts according to the sticker on the window.
The great thing about the American system is we have a right to chose what we think is best value (better mouse trap) for ourselves. Not what some fat and happy CEO thinks is best for us.
GM went around buying auto company's and doing partnership deals for many years. In a effort to get bigger and gain on short run stock prices. INSTEAD of concentrating on building a better mouse trap and now they are paying the price. Now I'm supposed to feel sorry for these people. Thats not going to happen with me.
The fact that Toyota has enough money to pay cash for GM and still have money left over should tell you how poorly the GM CEOs on down performed for many years.
Sure Toyota and Honda have had some problems but the thing is they try to correct them sooner rather than many many years later. How many years did GM let its coolant leaking intake problem drag on?
GM CEOs solution seemed to be spend more money buying more car manufactures instead of continuous improvement on what they already had. For this fat and happy GM CEOs got ever increasing bonus for running GM into the ground on what was once a great company, go figure.
Bought my 1st Toyota in 1986 and its been Toyota and Honda since. Just bought a 06 Toyota Tundra it is built in Indiana with 85% US parts according to the sticker on the window.
The great thing about the American system is we have a right to chose what we think is best value (better mouse trap) for ourselves. Not what some fat and happy CEO thinks is best for us.
GM went around buying auto company's and doing partnership deals for many years. In a effort to get bigger and gain on short run stock prices. INSTEAD of concentrating on building a better mouse trap and now they are paying the price. Now I'm supposed to feel sorry for these people. Thats not going to happen with me.
The fact that Toyota has enough money to pay cash for GM and still have money left over should tell you how poorly the GM CEOs on down performed for many years.
Sure Toyota and Honda have had some problems but the thing is they try to correct them sooner rather than many many years later. How many years did GM let its coolant leaking intake problem drag on?
GM CEOs solution seemed to be spend more money buying more car manufactures instead of continuous improvement on what they already had. For this fat and happy GM CEOs got ever increasing bonus for running GM into the ground on what was once a great company, go figure.
FWIW the Baretta in the pic is around an '88 model. 18 years old and still on the road.
Cousincletus - "Just trying to make a point that if someone makes more than me I'm not so jealous that I would not buy their products."
You are missing the point. For every product you buy, there is someone at the company that produced that product who makes MORE money than you or I. What is disgusting is when a product, sold through a oligopoly/monopoly, is substandard, and I'm told to take it or leave it. And I'm still suppose to happily support the management and workers that made that product.
Uh, no deal.
What is also disgusting is the Union line that you have taken on this topic: that we better be concerned for the health of GM, because OUR jobs may be in jeopardy. As if GM's incompetence is OUR fault. And no matter how poorly they continue to manufacturer vehicles, we better buy their vehicles in order to protect ourselves.
Oh, so scary! Know why the Union will try not to have to strike anymore? even when losing their favored health care coverage that the average American who buys their products can't get? It's because they have NO real clout with a strike. None.
People will just yawn, and say: "what dopes." The Union knows people would just buy (more) of the import brands, many of which are made right here in the US. And the GM worker would actually be in a more weakened position in future contract negotiations.
Hence, your line that we, the buying public, had better support GM for our own good, is a desperate grasp for some form of leverage. The old scare-tactic ways just aren't working are they, now that there is market-place competition?
Purchasing answer, "Cousin:" No thanks.
You are missing the point. For every product you buy, there is someone at the company that produced that product who makes MORE money than you or I. What is disgusting is when a product, sold through a oligopoly/monopoly, is substandard, and I'm told to take it or leave it. And I'm still suppose to happily support the management and workers that made that product.
Uh, no deal.
What is also disgusting is the Union line that you have taken on this topic: that we better be concerned for the health of GM, because OUR jobs may be in jeopardy. As if GM's incompetence is OUR fault. And no matter how poorly they continue to manufacturer vehicles, we better buy their vehicles in order to protect ourselves.
Oh, so scary! Know why the Union will try not to have to strike anymore? even when losing their favored health care coverage that the average American who buys their products can't get? It's because they have NO real clout with a strike. None.
People will just yawn, and say: "what dopes." The Union knows people would just buy (more) of the import brands, many of which are made right here in the US. And the GM worker would actually be in a more weakened position in future contract negotiations.
Hence, your line that we, the buying public, had better support GM for our own good, is a desperate grasp for some form of leverage. The old scare-tactic ways just aren't working are they, now that there is market-place competition?
Purchasing answer, "Cousin:" No thanks.
"Ha Ha my joke has outlasted my neighbors '01 camry"
(got any pics?)
"Bottom line is not the amount (lack) of attention and maintenance it needs, but what the car is like as far as comfort, road manners safety and long-term integrity."
Yeah, you don't even see very many 5-year-old Camry's on the road.
Is owner neglect a build quality issue? In reality, a quick engine fix and the Camry is still a decent car. NOTHING can fix what's wrong with the Cavalier except the crusher. That's one place the Cavalier should feel right at home, judging form it's crash-test performance.
"the Baretta in the pic is around an '88 model. 18 years old and still on the road"
'88, '90, '91 what's the difference?
How did you ascertain that the car is still on the road? Maybe it's 10-12 years old at the time of the photo, but the paint didn't fall off overnight! Even if it is still operational, it's still a miserable machine. What's the excuse for the "no paint" situation anyway? Are you saying it's actually a great car? Maybe the pic could be dated by the adjacent Daewoo...perhaps someone who is an expert on them could enlighten us. Maybe I should print up some "I Wish I Bought a Cavalier/Beretta/Tempo/Shadow" T-Shirts and get rich from all the dissatisfied Honda and Toyota owners.
(got any pics?)
"Bottom line is not the amount (lack) of attention and maintenance it needs, but what the car is like as far as comfort, road manners safety and long-term integrity."
Yeah, you don't even see very many 5-year-old Camry's on the road.
"the Baretta in the pic is around an '88 model. 18 years old and still on the road"
'88, '90, '91 what's the difference?
How did you ascertain that the car is still on the road? Maybe it's 10-12 years old at the time of the photo, but the paint didn't fall off overnight! Even if it is still operational, it's still a miserable machine. What's the excuse for the "no paint" situation anyway? Are you saying it's actually a great car? Maybe the pic could be dated by the adjacent Daewoo...perhaps someone who is an expert on them could enlighten us. Maybe I should print up some "I Wish I Bought a Cavalier/Beretta/Tempo/Shadow" T-Shirts and get rich from all the dissatisfied Honda and Toyota owners.
There are still opportunities for a strong domestic auto manufacturing industry but only if the fat is cut out and the operations are made much more lean. The problems start from the CEO on down and I am going to use the UAW as an example, but, by no means are they solely to blame. I understand that the average expenditure per working employee at GM is around 65$ per hour (salaries + pensions for retirees + health care costs etc.) If this figure could be halved to $32.50 per hour and management salaries halved etc. then GM might have enough cash to improve the quality of their cars and make their cars desirable again. I do not consider $32.50 per hour to be a substandard expenditure per active employee. For far too long the domestic manufacturers have been counting on attitudes like CousinCletus's who will buy domestic no matter what the quality. If bankruptcy is what it takes to cut out the fat then, by all means, let GM go thru it.
In the broader scope of things, it's really sad to see the way that Corporate America and for that matter the government handels many situations involving the people of this great country. You really think that some worker on the line makes to much money and benefits that could be had for half price and half the bennies by another factory and provide a better product is really helping the economy of this country. What about the corporate pay in the millions and pensions that run in the millions sometimes for their lifetime.
The unions were the ones that tried to help workers gain an edge in the growing gap of pay ,benefits and conditions that corporations were forcing on workers. No they weren't on the straight and narrow themselves, but they did do some good.
You complain that the average joe doing the other jobs in the working sector don't make squat, can't even get health coverage through their job. It's just another way in showing what the Corporate world percieves the working population.
If you really thought about it how important some of those low paying, no benefit jobs really are. Where do those people sitting on top think their food comes from, it doesn't magically apppear in the fridge, their chefs and staff don't pull it out of their hats or *****.
Really sad to see sow much work go overseas because it can be produced at greater profit margin. What ever happen to being self sufficient first, then going global. If there was a global event could this country produce all it's own material objects and survive without relying on the terrible lopsided imports that flow into ports everyday.
Maybe someday trickle down will actually work. Where all can enjoy the benefits of what should be the nessecities of life. Util then it's still a matter of the Rich get richer and, well you know the rest.
The unions were the ones that tried to help workers gain an edge in the growing gap of pay ,benefits and conditions that corporations were forcing on workers. No they weren't on the straight and narrow themselves, but they did do some good.
You complain that the average joe doing the other jobs in the working sector don't make squat, can't even get health coverage through their job. It's just another way in showing what the Corporate world percieves the working population.
If you really thought about it how important some of those low paying, no benefit jobs really are. Where do those people sitting on top think their food comes from, it doesn't magically apppear in the fridge, their chefs and staff don't pull it out of their hats or *****.
Really sad to see sow much work go overseas because it can be produced at greater profit margin. What ever happen to being self sufficient first, then going global. If there was a global event could this country produce all it's own material objects and survive without relying on the terrible lopsided imports that flow into ports everyday.
Maybe someday trickle down will actually work. Where all can enjoy the benefits of what should be the nessecities of life. Util then it's still a matter of the Rich get richer and, well you know the rest.
I pity people like Rickey and Cletus that put up with such shoddy design and workmanship of cars like the Cavalier.. But then again we all need to realize that not everyone has the needs for their cars to be of higher standard. They accept crappy cars because the cars are cheap and American. Thankfully their opinions are not of the norm, the younger, more edutcated generations have "seen the light" and their views are made known with their wallets. More and more people are not blindly supporting "American made" cars, why do you think GM is in such trouble?
At least Chrysler and Ford seem to be trying on some fronts, like the new Chargers, 300's and the Fusion. Kudos to them. GM might have a winner with the Cobalt but they will need to revamp the rest of their fleet too. Imo.
At least Chrysler and Ford seem to be trying on some fronts, like the new Chargers, 300's and the Fusion. Kudos to them. GM might have a winner with the Cobalt but they will need to revamp the rest of their fleet too. Imo.
Originally posted by Quick_lude:
Thankfully their opinions are not of the norm, the younger, more edutcated generations have "seen the light" and their views are made known with their wallets. More and more people are not blindly supporting "American made" cars, why do you think GM is in such trouble?
Actually, the more you educate yourself on this issue the less you want to contribute to the 700+ billion dollar annual trade deficit. The Cavalier is a good cheap car that will hold up at least as well as the best of any import brand out there. Plus parts are cheap and available, car is easy to service. No reason to buy an import when I'm getting good service out of my domestic. Seems to me there are people here who like to put others down to justify their own decisions. So I'm a uneducated knuckle dragger for buying an American manufactured product. OK, if you say so.
It's simple. When the US Big-Three build cool, reliable cars that are affordable, people will buy them.
There are a handful of nice cars, but the perception of needing AAA every week to get to work will linger.
I am NOT going to NOT buy Japanese because of the trade deficit.
Once the Big Three get off of their arses and revamp from the top-down, change will happen.
You can't pay someone $35 an hour plus benefits to put hubcaps on Chevy's and expect to make a profit, let alone an affordable car.
Even the neat new Solstice's interior looks like it came from a 1984 Sunfire.
Time to clean house.
Scott
There are a handful of nice cars, but the perception of needing AAA every week to get to work will linger.
I am NOT going to NOT buy Japanese because of the trade deficit.
Once the Big Three get off of their arses and revamp from the top-down, change will happen.
You can't pay someone $35 an hour plus benefits to put hubcaps on Chevy's and expect to make a profit, let alone an affordable car.
Even the neat new Solstice's interior looks like it came from a 1984 Sunfire.
Time to clean house.
Scott
BTW, a study was released last week that stated, and I paraphrase:
"The average eight-year old Toyota has as many problems as a 3-4 year old American made car."
Sorry, but a few anal-retentive BITOG posters that can keep a Cavalier running for 300k miles don't represent the fact that the average Cavalier owner who doesn't dote over his/her car spends more time in a rental car office.
Scott
"The average eight-year old Toyota has as many problems as a 3-4 year old American made car."
Sorry, but a few anal-retentive BITOG posters that can keep a Cavalier running for 300k miles don't represent the fact that the average Cavalier owner who doesn't dote over his/her car spends more time in a rental car office.
Scott
ImaginThat - I am the Union Steward at my organization and also a member of Middle Management, and, by the nature of my job, a decision-maker. Our organization provides specialty financial/audit services.
How can this be, especially after what I wrote above? Our union tries to provide a better environment that produces continually improving services to our "customers" as the primary goal. Without that, our ride along the way to the future will not be as satisfying or pleasant as it could be. And likely not as prosperous.
To get there, we believe there has to be a reasoned organized resistance to foolish management decisions. Indeed, there have been many such decisions, just as in any large organization. We also believe that many senior managers simply have a better idea as to how to get there - providing better services - based in part on experience and innovation, AND NEED TO BE SUPPORTED IN CARRYING OUT THESE DECISIONS.
This should contrast vividly with the goals of the union leaders at the car manufacturers. "Get your piece of the pie before they get their's," is their mantra. Us versus them, however, doesn't work forever.
IMO, GM's problems are first management, then workers, and certainly to some degree, the do-nothing board who are suppose to be managing the company and at the same time representing the stockholders. (Actually, all employees and directors should be representing the stockholders' interests - fat chance).
But its the buying public who casts the deciding vote, certainly, in selecting their vehicles. The customer is not going to be dictated to any longer - competition really is good in many ways. And for GM and Ford, that "customer vote" is clearly indicating that significant changes are needed. And have been needed for decades.
Unfortunately, both GM and Ford now may have their future strategies, if any, determined within the parameters of the bankruptcy courts. How needlessly sad.
How can this be, especially after what I wrote above? Our union tries to provide a better environment that produces continually improving services to our "customers" as the primary goal. Without that, our ride along the way to the future will not be as satisfying or pleasant as it could be. And likely not as prosperous.
To get there, we believe there has to be a reasoned organized resistance to foolish management decisions. Indeed, there have been many such decisions, just as in any large organization. We also believe that many senior managers simply have a better idea as to how to get there - providing better services - based in part on experience and innovation, AND NEED TO BE SUPPORTED IN CARRYING OUT THESE DECISIONS.
This should contrast vividly with the goals of the union leaders at the car manufacturers. "Get your piece of the pie before they get their's," is their mantra. Us versus them, however, doesn't work forever.
IMO, GM's problems are first management, then workers, and certainly to some degree, the do-nothing board who are suppose to be managing the company and at the same time representing the stockholders. (Actually, all employees and directors should be representing the stockholders' interests - fat chance).
But its the buying public who casts the deciding vote, certainly, in selecting their vehicles. The customer is not going to be dictated to any longer - competition really is good in many ways. And for GM and Ford, that "customer vote" is clearly indicating that significant changes are needed. And have been needed for decades.
Unfortunately, both GM and Ford now may have their future strategies, if any, determined within the parameters of the bankruptcy courts. How needlessly sad.
"The Cavalier is a good cheap car that will hold up at least as well as the best of any import brand"
Again, who cares if it "lasts" when it is fully a miserable ride, bumper-to-bumper?
Cobalt appeared in the NEW CR Report list of owners who are "Least Satisfied" with their new cars. iirc reliability was an issue.
Again, who cares if it "lasts" when it is fully a miserable ride, bumper-to-bumper?
Cobalt appeared in the NEW CR Report list of owners who are "Least Satisfied" with their new cars. iirc reliability was an issue.
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