Another dagger in GM

[jbas]

Great articles - one glaring omission: image.

The 20s and 30s years old on my job would never even CONSIDER buying a GM or Ford. They think that should be left to the stupid and/or unenlightened. You know, people they feel sorry for. The new up-and-comers wish to convey an image of intelligence and savyness, so these folks will buy an Accord, or a Maxima, or a Camry, or an SUV from one of those companies. The independent one will experiment with a Subaru. When they get into management levels, they will buy a Lexus. Not Cadillac, not Lincoln. The second car will be a Civic, Sentra, or maybe a used Lexus, Acura, or Infinity.

There is NO reason for them not to continue on this path, or to go back to the domestics' newest lost cause. An ever-increasing number of SATISFIED buyers will never come back to GM or Ford. I think even the Mercedes/BMW/Volvo pool will eventually decline, if they haven't already.

 

[brianl703]

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The 20s and 30s years old on my job would never even CONSIDER buying a GM or Ford.

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These wouldn't be the same types who went into a conniption over GM putting their logo on Saturn vehicles, would they?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

GM, never again! I will admit that my wife and I joke about our past ownerships of chevys oldmobiles, fords and a dodge and now we look down on domestics as something we would only buy at fire sale prices and we may not think it's worth it even if they are well below market value.

That is what happens.. Been there tried that moved on.. found what we had been missing and can't imagine enduring that again (GM Ford etc..) I think they are mechanically sound.. for the most part but they are unattractive rickety unrefined and lack fit and finish.. Yes I am prejudiced and jaded against them as enough horrible events with a line of products will lead to that conclusion.

I was a GM loyalist when I was right out of High School.. I figure that goes with being yound and stupid. I was outraged when my dad stopped buying GM trucks and brought home a Toyota while I was in the military!! Then I got married and burned through a few cars in just a few years.. then I bout a 10 year old 136k mile nissan truck and it was tighter than any new truck I ever had. That was an eye opener.

The problem with GM is they will never get someone like me back at a profit. Those still loyal will only buy a limited number of vehicles in their lives and then the customer base dwindles with the passing of each generation from the roads.
What is GM going to do to make it look like a smart buy for young up and comers? What are they going to do to make those who know enough to check not fear coolant in their oil with each uoa?
Without that the atrophy will continue.

 

[ex_MGB]

The foreign U.S. car manufacturers pay about the same all in wage to a non-exempt worker as the big three. No doubt there does not exist the same "job banks" program for idled workers.

I believe the number of non-exempt U.S. workers in the auto manufacturing industry has stayed level for the past 10 years.

This is in sharp contrast to say the steel industry where in the past 25 years non-exempt employment has dropped from something like 250,000 to 75,000. Interestingly, the same yearly tonnage of steel is produced domestically. This sort of thing is called by economists productivity growth and in theory leads to a higher standard of living for society as a whole.

It being a free country, I of course support the right to organize. However, it did seem in the past there was something of a Punch and Judy show between Union management and the Big Three management where after a drama of a strike and during which the rest of the country was supposed to tremble in fear, the crisis finally passed and everybody's wages went up along with the price of the vehicle. Of course now, the rest of the country would simply import more vehicles or buy from a foreign U.S. manufacturer. It is because of this reality that Union managements have migrated away from manufacturing to govenment based employment where there is much less competition.

Where I do get wrung up is the idea that once this process has exhausted all funds and bankruptcy sets in, I as a taxpayer, get to assume the pension obligations of say some union airline pilot who has retired from a $250,000 per year job and now is looking for Uncle Sam to pick up the tab for his $100,000 per year pension.

I may have just crossed the line from economics to politics...but if GM does go belly-up who is supposed to guarantee the pension plan?

[ March 18, 2006, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]

 

[ex_MGB]

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Originally posted by brianl703:

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it seems the UAW are quite capable of building excellent cars

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I don't believe it's a problem with the UAW. I believe it's a problem with management and/or the engineers. As far as the engineers, I will only point out that math and science education achievement and education in this country has long been noted as a problem.

Would it be reasonable to suspect that those problems might be reflected in the sort of engineering that comes out of the "Big Three"?

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I agree a 100% that a U.S. worker, whether he has UAW management or foreign U.S. management, is absolutely capable of producing a quality product.

However, if I had to choose between UAW management or foreign U.S. management in regards to which management had a higher degree of concern about producing a quality product in contrast to other concerns, I would choose the foreign U.S. management.

As to U.S. engineering talent, I think the real issue here is in regards to how best can an individual maximize their career earnings potential. By and large a typical U.S. engineer with a private employer has almost no job security and constantly has the treat of unemployment in front of them. Also, it somehow seems the engineer in the work environment winds up as grist for the management-worker mill

It seems to me that if someone in the U.S. has the self discipline and moxie to apply themselves to earn an undergraduate engineering degree in the U.S. than they certainly could also become say a lawyer or medical doctor or for that matter work in real estate or start their own business.

So I think the talent pool pretty much heads in other directions than engineering either initially or migrates out of it.

 

[VTEC01EX]

All I know is that my GM vehicles broke frequently to an attitude of indifference from dealer service departments (while under warranty), and the attitude of excitement from my local mechanic (who had a kid in college) when out of warranty. I truly liked the cars, although I'll admit certain aspects of my 97 Blazer could have been much better. 5 years into my 01 Civic, the only part that has failed was a ABS wheel speed sensor, replaced apologetically under warranty, with a free car detail and oil change for my trouble. All that for $15K, when a similarly configured Cavalier was $17K. No one wanted to sell me the Cavalier with a proper manual gearbox either. I also support my friends here in Central Ohio that work for Honda and their suppliers.

I don't want to make it seem like I hate GM, because I really do like some of their current stuff (particularly the CTS, the Colorado/Canyon, and even the Lucerne). The bottom line though is that after working with GM's regional reps and a handful of dealers over a bunch of electrical glitches and other obvious faults, I'm not in any hurry to do it again. I'll be a Honda guy till they screw me over!

 

[brianl703]

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So I think the talent pool pretty much heads in other directions than engineering either initially or migrates out of it.

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My congressman, Frank Wolf, is quite concerned about the fact that the USA is not graduating as many engineers as other countries are.

I believe it's something to be concerned about but as you mentioned, there are a lot of factors which are causing it.

 

[brianl703]

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an attitude of indifference from dealer service departments (while under warranty)

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Indifference is one thing. Dishonesty and outright lying to the customer about what's wrong with their car is another.

That's what happened in Oct 2005 when my mom took her 2004 Chevrolet Malibu Classic into the local dealership (which isn't the dealership that sold her the car) for a noise it was making from the strut mounts.

They blamed it on the brake pads and tried to sell her a brake job as well as 2-3 other things it didn't need (tire rotation, throttle body cleaning).

She called me and told me what they said so I went over there and declined all work at the dealership and told them to get it ready to be picked up. Then I drove the car to my mechanic and asked him to put it on a lift and check the brake pads (which I didn't think were worn but the service advisor claimed they were down to 3/32" thickness).

It turns out that not only did the service advisor lie (to me the brake pads looked almost brand new in terms of pad thickness), but the "mechanic" who worked on the car sprayed some lubricant all over the front suspension parts in what appears to have been an attempt to silence the noise.

About 2 weeks later I found out that GM had issued a TSB for the noise problem back in May 2005. The mechanic should have been able to find that TSB since it's the ONLY one that comes up when you look under suspension for that car...but I suppose that you'd have to be literate in order to do that.

I printed the TSB out (got it from the local library who has Mitchell's On Demand on their computers) and took it to the selling dealer at 7:30AM on a snowy Friday and showed the service advisor the TSB and where the noise was coming from.

By 9:30AM they were done and they had fixed both sides, not just the one that was making the noise. (The TSB says to replace the spring seats and not only did the dealer do that, they also replaced the strut mounts too).

Totally amazing how different the two Chevy dealers were in regards to this problem. (Of course, I did find the TSB and I was able to show the dealership exactly where the noise was coming from).

This is, by the way, the only problem her car has had in 2 years and 27,000 miles.

 

[MC5W20]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:

quote:

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an attitude of indifference from dealer service departments (while under warranty)

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Indifference is one thing. Dishonesty and outright lying to the customer about what's wrong with their car is another.

That's what happened in Oct 2005 when my mom took her 2004 Chevrolet Malibu Classic into the local dealership (which isn't the dealership that sold her the car) for a noise it was making from the strut mounts.

They blamed it on the brake pads and tried to sell her a brake job as well as 2-3 other things it didn't need (tire rotation, throttle body cleaning).

She called me and told me what they said so I went over there and declined all work at the dealership and told them to get it ready to be picked up. Then I drove the car to my mechanic and asked him to put it on a lift and check the brake pads (which I didn't think were worn but the service advisor claimed they were down to 3/32" thickness).

It turns out that not only did the service advisor lie (to me the brake pads looked almost brand new in terms of pad thickness), but the "mechanic" who worked on the car sprayed some lubricant all over the front suspension parts in what appears to have been an attempt to silence the noise.

About 2 weeks later I found out that GM had issued a TSB for the noise problem back in May 2005. The mechanic should have been able to find that TSB since it's the ONLY one that comes up when you look under suspension for that car...but I suppose that you'd have to be literate in order to do that.

I printed the TSB out (got it from the local library who has Mitchell's On Demand on their computers) and took it to the selling dealer at 7:30AM on a snowy Friday and showed the service advisor the TSB and where the noise was coming from.

By 9:30AM they were done and they had fixed both sides, not just the one that was making the noise. (The TSB says to replace the spring seats and not only did the dealer do that, they also replaced the strut mounts too).

Totally amazing how different the two Chevy dealers were in regards to this problem. (Of course, I did find the TSB and I was able to show the dealership exactly where the noise was coming from).

This is, by the way, the only problem her car has had in 2 years and 27,000 miles.

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For what its worth: I have always found that you will get superior service if you take your vehicle to the selling dealer. I would take the shiester dealer and call the news on him or make a report with the State Attorney General. It is crap like that from the dealers why I will never consider buying a Toyota.

 

[brianl703]

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The thing started shocking the heck out of him through the door as he would get out of the car.

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I know a bit about electronics and I don't see how that is possibly caused by the radio.

It COULD be caused by the well-known phenominon of static charge buildup on a dry dry as one slides across the seat...

 

[ex_MGB]

In my case the wife bought a vehicle. Always had service done at the local dealership she bought it at. Shortly after warranty expired she was told during a regular oil change that both her rear brake slave cylinders were leaking fluid and that this fluid had contaminated the rear drum pads. Quote for repair was $450, she said she'd take it home and talk with hubby.

At 125k miles, still has the same rear slave cylinders and fluid level in the master cylinder never goes down. I change out brake fluid in all my vehicles every 3 years.

Right after that, I went back to doing all my own oil changes. As hard as the grease was on the front end, it didn't look like those zerks ever saw a fresh dose during those regular 3k oil changes.

 

[ekpolk]

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It is crap like that from the dealers why I will never consider buying a Toyota.

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Respectfully, generalizations like this are meaningless. The Toyota dealership in Pensacola FL (Bob Tyler Toyota) is an absolutely 1st rate operation. They charge typical import prices in the service department, but no hassles. Most recently, I took the wife's 01 Sequoia in for some maintenance and to get the headlights' aim adjusted. I told them the driver's side had been off for a long time, I'd just forgotten to mention it the past few visits. This car is about one year and about 10k miles out of wty.

Their answer after looking it over: it obviously came from the factory that way -- no charge to fix, no other games.

I'd probably go back to them even if they were selling rusty Yugos.

 

[ex_MGB]

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Originally posted by brianl703:

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So I think the talent pool pretty much heads in other directions than engineering either initially or migrates out of it.

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My congressman, Frank Wolf, is quite concerned about the fact that the USA is not graduating as many engineers as other countries are.

I believe it's something to be concerned about but as you mentioned, there are a lot of factors which are causing it.

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I wonder if he'll get wrung up enough that a couple of his sons/daughters will graduate in engineering?

 

[GoldenRod]

There are over 12,000 of us BITOGers on this board. If each of us were to purchase a brand new 2007 Chevy Tahoe, we could single handedly save General Motors. What you guys say?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

No thanks I like driving and dislike warranty work.

 

[ARB1977]

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Originally posted by GoldenRod:
There are over 12,000 of us BITOGers on this board. If each of us were to purchase a brand new 2007 Chevy Tahoe, we could single handedly save General Motors. What you guys say?

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Fawk that the only chevy ill every drive is the duarmax diesel. If they keep making large suvs with large engines they are only hurting themselfs.

 

[Quick_lude]

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Originally posted by got boost?:
Cars that GM makes which are at/near the top of their respective categories:
Cadillac
GTO

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Please, I just about snorted my Coke through the nose when I read this..

You think that Cadillac and the GTO are at the top of their categories?
No way, BMW, MB, Infinity, Acura and Lexus are much better than a Caddy and isn't the GTO discontinued?

GM does make some decent cars but they also make a LOT of everyday cars that are not very well designed, engineered or put together. Heck even the Vette until the current generation had a "luxurious Cavalier" look and feel inside. That is totally unacceptable for a flagship vehicle and the rest of the world was laughing at GM for making it such.
I'm sure that GM has more support in the USA but up here in Canada they seem to be losing market share to the Japanese, Koreans and Germans. GM needs to overhaul their entire company, starting with design and engineering down to service and reliability or for better or for worse they will not survive in the upcoming global economy.

Personally I don't like GM cars but I do realize their importance to the overall economy and I do hope they can restructure and stay in business.

 

[jbas]

"GM needs to overhaul their entire company, starting with design and engineering down to service and reliability"

This seems to be the core theme in many posts. IMO, I'm not sure GM will even try. Some sort of mental denial. Ford, too. I heard an exec say how Ford really needed to get new, fresh models to the market. I just shook my head - no understanding that they and GM are getting whipped in the most important area of all - the public's perception of, and demand for, reliability.

GM thinking same way. E.g., the new Hummer-H3, a new smaller version in the Hummer line. H3 is based on the Chevy Colorado, another trouble-prone vehicle. Are there vehicles with worse reliability records than Hummer and Hummer-H2? H3 is likely doomed, it won't be reliable. Geez, why would someone pay $50K just to drive, or tow, their vehicle to the dealer's service area? It just goes on and on and on...

Maybe in Chapter 11 the necessary (extreme) measures can get put in place.

 

[99]

GM needs to get with the program and fast if it still wants to stay alive. First and foremost GM NEEDS to come out with a midsize and fullsize V8/RWD car that doesn't come from a Cadillac dealer. They don't have any and that's bad because V8/RWD cars are hot (think Dodge) and don't show any signs of going away anytime soon. This "FWD only" mode GM is in has got to go if they want to even remotely remain competitive in the midsize and fullsize segment. Second, they need to build the Camaro ASAP. Goes without saying. The public wants this car. GM doesn't have a high performance/RWD/V8 powered vehicle that can compete with the Mustang. This market is huge and GM has left it untapped since they killed the Camaro/Trans Am in 02. Don't even mention the wannabe GTO or else you will get slapped. Third, they need to get over their large SUV envy and redirect some of the energy and $$$$ they are dumping into that division and put it into the passenger car and smaller crossover SUV divisions. Jeep/DC is kicking GM's *** with their "little" SUVs and they are about to release the new Compass. GM needs something to better compete with Jeep....the Trailblazer just isn't cutting it. Lastly, GM needs to sell the Hummer division. It didn't pan out and they should sell it while the getting is good. Hummer is nothing but dead weight for GM. GM is GM's worst enemy right now because they essentially have nothing to offer in the marketplace....except large SUVs.

[ March 19, 2006, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: 99 ]

 

[cousincletus]

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Originally posted by vad:

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They don't make twice what I make. Maybe you should consider a different career.

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It's all about YOU, isn't it?

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Exactly the opposite. I am very concerned about whether my neighbors have a job or not and therefore try to buy American made products from American manufacturers. Just trying to make a point that if someone makes more than me I'm not so jealous that I would not buy their products.