Amsoil HDD in 04 Corolla?
- Thread starter Benoit
- Start date
- Status
Man, CATERHAM, I'm trying to be civil and measured, but you make it hard.....
You are right, technically, on papewr, HDD is 'much' heavier than a 20-weight.
And, if in a perfect lab demo, you put on a OP guage, and did scientific measurements, you would get just slightly slower flow, and higher OP out of the thicker oil.
But i'm not bloddy well talking about lab conditions - I'm talking about real world, day to day operation. I'm talkinjg about ALL the other things that affect MPG's....tire pressure, number of people in the car, wind speed...
It's an 8-year old car with higher miles. Fill it up with people for a trip on a 90 degree day, put on the air, and run down the highway with many stops...you think that you can notice or measure hoe many less mpg's you are getting, or how quick the oil flows to the top of the engine after the 5th hot re-start?
In these real-world conditions, the oils will feel and the exact same, and THIS is the world cars operate in. Now, if you put 20W-50 in the car, you MAY be able to motice the engie is a bit more sluggish..you may. But you will NOT notice the difference between a3.5 30-weight and a 2.8 20-weight...you can't.
You are right, technically, on papewr, HDD is 'much' heavier than a 20-weight.
And, if in a perfect lab demo, you put on a OP guage, and did scientific measurements, you would get just slightly slower flow, and higher OP out of the thicker oil.
But i'm not bloddy well talking about lab conditions - I'm talking about real world, day to day operation. I'm talkinjg about ALL the other things that affect MPG's....tire pressure, number of people in the car, wind speed...
It's an 8-year old car with higher miles. Fill it up with people for a trip on a 90 degree day, put on the air, and run down the highway with many stops...you think that you can notice or measure hoe many less mpg's you are getting, or how quick the oil flows to the top of the engine after the 5th hot re-start?
In these real-world conditions, the oils will feel and the exact same, and THIS is the world cars operate in. Now, if you put 20W-50 in the car, you MAY be able to motice the engie is a bit more sluggish..you may. But you will NOT notice the difference between a3.5 30-weight and a 2.8 20-weight...you can't.
addyguy I have tried this with CATERHAM in the past, but he is dead set in VII's and darn everything else. It is just the way he is, but I agree there are compromises in blending a product and in my everyday driving I am not concerned in the VII content of either FS 5W20 that is in my wife's Focus or the PYB 5W20 in my F150.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
But i'm not bloddy well talking about lab conditions - I'm talking about real world, day to day operation. I'm talkinjg about ALL the other things that affect MPG's....tire pressure, number of people in the car, wind speed...
You're certainly right. CATERHAM has even stated that in the real world, one would be hard pressed to notice the difference. That doesn't mean that the difference isn't there. He may very well be right that it pays off in the long run, even if we don't notice it. I wouldn't notice an extra loonie on my dresser, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
Personally, if I wouldn't notice something, I wouldn't worry about it. I would see no problem running HDD in a car like that. I'm sure I wouldn't notice any difference. However, that doesn't mean I'm right, either.
But i'm not bloddy well talking about lab conditions - I'm talking about real world, day to day operation. I'm talkinjg about ALL the other things that affect MPG's....tire pressure, number of people in the car, wind speed...
You're certainly right. CATERHAM has even stated that in the real world, one would be hard pressed to notice the difference. That doesn't mean that the difference isn't there. He may very well be right that it pays off in the long run, even if we don't notice it. I wouldn't notice an extra loonie on my dresser, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
Personally, if I wouldn't notice something, I wouldn't worry about it. I would see no problem running HDD in a car like that. I'm sure I wouldn't notice any difference. However, that doesn't mean I'm right, either.
"... a noticeable difference..."
Possibly a "MEASURABLE" difference, if you have a device that can actually measure the kinds of friction you may reduce.
All this stuff about 2mpg better is, IMHO, pure fantasy: more like 0.2mpg, maybe...
Since when is any 5w30 a "HEAVY" oil? Only in some peoples minds, not in the real world?
Maybe in Nome...
Cheers!
Possibly a "MEASURABLE" difference, if you have a device that can actually measure the kinds of friction you may reduce.
All this stuff about 2mpg better is, IMHO, pure fantasy: more like 0.2mpg, maybe...
Since when is any 5w30 a "HEAVY" oil? Only in some peoples minds, not in the real world?
Maybe in Nome...
Cheers!
Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
"... a noticeable difference..."
Possibly a "MEASURABLE" difference, if you have a device that can actually measure the kinds of friction you may reduce.
All this stuff about 2mpg better is, IMHO, pure fantasy: more like 0.2mpg, maybe...
Since when is any 5w30 a "HEAVY" oil? Only in some peoples minds, not in the real world?
Maybe in Nome...
Cheers!
Norm welcome to the "ignorance is bliss crowd" you're in good company.
"when is any 5w30 a HEAVY oil?" When it has a low VI and a HTHSV of 3.5cP. But then you undoubtedly don't know what HTHSV is so I'm likely wasting my breath.
BTW for those that have any interest in the facts, as a point of interest HDD is heavier at all start-up temp's than M1 SM 0W-40. Even at 85F M1 is still 10% lighter.
"... a noticeable difference..."
Possibly a "MEASURABLE" difference, if you have a device that can actually measure the kinds of friction you may reduce.
All this stuff about 2mpg better is, IMHO, pure fantasy: more like 0.2mpg, maybe...
Since when is any 5w30 a "HEAVY" oil? Only in some peoples minds, not in the real world?
Maybe in Nome...
Cheers!
Norm welcome to the "ignorance is bliss crowd" you're in good company.
"when is any 5w30 a HEAVY oil?" When it has a low VI and a HTHSV of 3.5cP. But then you undoubtedly don't know what HTHSV is so I'm likely wasting my breath.
BTW for those that have any interest in the facts, as a point of interest HDD is heavier at all start-up temp's than M1 SM 0W-40. Even at 85F M1 is still 10% lighter.
Quote:
My take on it is that Toyota in the States simply haven't bothered to back spec' as much as Toyota Canada has. Since this isn't a warranty issue but rather what Toyota Canada believes is appropriate based undoubtedly on Toyota Japan recommendations, if it were myself I'd follow Toyota Canada's recommendation of the lighter oil without reservation.
If i mention that this engine in Germany specs ESP 5w30 that has HTHSV of 3.58cP. You go bonkers and claim those specs are not applicable. Yet you have no problem saying go with what Toyota Canada says.
Thats not hypocritical is it?
If the correct spec is HTHSV of 3.58cP and it is in other countries sans CAFE! Then HDD would be perfect for this engine.
Go ahead and spin this.
My take on it is that Toyota in the States simply haven't bothered to back spec' as much as Toyota Canada has. Since this isn't a warranty issue but rather what Toyota Canada believes is appropriate based undoubtedly on Toyota Japan recommendations, if it were myself I'd follow Toyota Canada's recommendation of the lighter oil without reservation.
If i mention that this engine in Germany specs ESP 5w30 that has HTHSV of 3.58cP. You go bonkers and claim those specs are not applicable. Yet you have no problem saying go with what Toyota Canada says.
Thats not hypocritical is it?
If the correct spec is HTHSV of 3.58cP and it is in other countries sans CAFE! Then HDD would be perfect for this engine.
Go ahead and spin this.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2006
- Messages
- 2,330
If a country "specs" an oil that happens to have an HTHSV of 3.58cP, does that make it the "correct spec"?
If another country specs an oil with an HTHSV of 2.7cP for the same engine, is that not the correct spec?
If another country specs an oil with an HTHSV of 2.7cP for the same engine, is that not the correct spec?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
My take on it is that Toyota in the States simply haven't bothered to back spec' as much as Toyota Canada has. Since this isn't a warranty issue but rather what Toyota Canada believes is appropriate based undoubtedly on Toyota Japan recommendations, if it were myself I'd follow Toyota Canada's recommendation of the lighter oil without reservation.
If i mention that this engine in Germany specs ESP 5w30 that has HTHSV of 3.58cP. You go bonkers and claim those specs are not applicable. Yet you have no problem saying go with what Toyota Canada says.
Thats not hypocritical is it?
If the correct spec is HTHSV of 3.58cP and it is in other countries sans CAFE! Then HDD would be perfect for this engine.
Go ahead and spin this.
Me thanks I ain't so ignorantly bliss in knee mower. Trav, I'm starting to warm up to you. Rest assured, it's a purely platonic kinda way.
Quote:
My take on it is that Toyota in the States simply haven't bothered to back spec' as much as Toyota Canada has. Since this isn't a warranty issue but rather what Toyota Canada believes is appropriate based undoubtedly on Toyota Japan recommendations, if it were myself I'd follow Toyota Canada's recommendation of the lighter oil without reservation.
If i mention that this engine in Germany specs ESP 5w30 that has HTHSV of 3.58cP. You go bonkers and claim those specs are not applicable. Yet you have no problem saying go with what Toyota Canada says.
Thats not hypocritical is it?
If the correct spec is HTHSV of 3.58cP and it is in other countries sans CAFE! Then HDD would be perfect for this engine.
Go ahead and spin this.
Me thanks I ain't so ignorantly bliss in knee mower. Trav, I'm starting to warm up to you. Rest assured, it's a purely platonic kinda way.
Quote:
If a country "specs" an oil that happens to have an HTHSV of 3.58cP, does that make it the "correct spec"?
If another country specs an oil with an HTHSV of 2.7cP for the same engine, is that not the correct spec?
I'm sure we can agree that both countries did not pull the spec out of their behind. They both did it with the blessing of Toyota Japan.
That's the dilemma isn't it, which one is correct or are they both correct?
I change oil twice a year and use thinner in the winter and heavier in the summer. 5w20 is probably great in the middle of Canadian winters but in the summer it maybe to thin, JMO.
Someone's opinion is not more valid than mine or yours or anyone else's its their opinion.
From a mechanical standpoint engines are more tolerant of a heavier than necessary oil than an oil that's thinner than needed.
When the thin oils film fails its usually a catastrophe.
Older Subaru handbooks put it best. Cold, light load and fuel economy use thin oil, hot or hard working the engine use thicker oil.
Course that's not politically correct or energy conserving any more and that's what we need to get past IMO.
If a country "specs" an oil that happens to have an HTHSV of 3.58cP, does that make it the "correct spec"?
If another country specs an oil with an HTHSV of 2.7cP for the same engine, is that not the correct spec?
I'm sure we can agree that both countries did not pull the spec out of their behind. They both did it with the blessing of Toyota Japan.
That's the dilemma isn't it, which one is correct or are they both correct?
I change oil twice a year and use thinner in the winter and heavier in the summer. 5w20 is probably great in the middle of Canadian winters but in the summer it maybe to thin, JMO.
Someone's opinion is not more valid than mine or yours or anyone else's its their opinion.
From a mechanical standpoint engines are more tolerant of a heavier than necessary oil than an oil that's thinner than needed.
When the thin oils film fails its usually a catastrophe.
Older Subaru handbooks put it best. Cold, light load and fuel economy use thin oil, hot or hard working the engine use thicker oil.
Course that's not politically correct or energy conserving any more and that's what we need to get past IMO.
FWIW I want to add something about real world MPG's in a similar application that is also back spec'd for the 0w20 Toyota oil.
My 05 Prius got 0 MPG difference switching to M1 0w40 from a light, or possibly the lightest, 5w30 (PP). In fact I got the best mileage ever recently with the M1 0w40 in the sump, by 2-3MPG, but I attribute that to the unseasonably warm weather we have been having.
With almost 240k on the engine I don't think I would prefer to run 0w20, but for the sake of experimenting I might have to just to see if I get real world, measurably, better mileage. I dont expect I will.
My 05 Prius got 0 MPG difference switching to M1 0w40 from a light, or possibly the lightest, 5w30 (PP). In fact I got the best mileage ever recently with the M1 0w40 in the sump, by 2-3MPG, but I attribute that to the unseasonably warm weather we have been having.
With almost 240k on the engine I don't think I would prefer to run 0w20, but for the sake of experimenting I might have to just to see if I get real world, measurably, better mileage. I dont expect I will.
"My spec's better than your spec!
My spec's better than yours...
My spec's BETTER because it's HTHSV is incrementally lower
(higher?) than yours,
But, in the real world, I can't get it to reliably
provide better numbers, all the time...
But, according to the website it really does!"
Cheers!
My spec's better than yours...
My spec's BETTER because it's HTHSV is incrementally lower
(higher?) than yours,
But, in the real world, I can't get it to reliably
provide better numbers, all the time...
But, according to the website it really does!"
Cheers!
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
My take on it is that Toyota in the States simply haven't bothered to back spec' as much as Toyota Canada has. Since this isn't a warranty issue but rather what Toyota Canada believes is appropriate based undoubtedly on Toyota Japan recommendations, if it were myself I'd follow Toyota Canada's recommendation of the lighter oil without reservation.
If i mention that this engine in Germany specs ESP 5w30 that has HTHSV of 3.58cP. You go bonkers and claim those specs are not applicable. Yet you have no problem saying go with what Toyota Canada says.
Thats not hypocritical is it?
If the correct spec is HTHSV of 3.58cP and it is in other countries sans CAFE! Then HDD would be perfect for this engine.
Go ahead and spin this.
Your actually saying that an A3 oil is spec'd for the Corolla in Germany? No option of an A1 or A5 30wt let alone a 20wt oil?
Toyota, Honda and Ford to name just three OEM's have been specifying a 20wt oil for a few years now for many models in Europe.
You've seen the Canadian Toyota oil recommendation chart posted by LeakySeals on page 3 of this thread.
Why don't post the German or European Toyota recommendation chart? I'm sure many BITOG members would like to see it.
Quote:
My take on it is that Toyota in the States simply haven't bothered to back spec' as much as Toyota Canada has. Since this isn't a warranty issue but rather what Toyota Canada believes is appropriate based undoubtedly on Toyota Japan recommendations, if it were myself I'd follow Toyota Canada's recommendation of the lighter oil without reservation.
If i mention that this engine in Germany specs ESP 5w30 that has HTHSV of 3.58cP. You go bonkers and claim those specs are not applicable. Yet you have no problem saying go with what Toyota Canada says.
Thats not hypocritical is it?
If the correct spec is HTHSV of 3.58cP and it is in other countries sans CAFE! Then HDD would be perfect for this engine.
Go ahead and spin this.
Your actually saying that an A3 oil is spec'd for the Corolla in Germany? No option of an A1 or A5 30wt let alone a 20wt oil?
Toyota, Honda and Ford to name just three OEM's have been specifying a 20wt oil for a few years now for many models in Europe.
You've seen the Canadian Toyota oil recommendation chart posted by LeakySeals on page 3 of this thread.
Why don't post the German or European Toyota recommendation chart? I'm sure many BITOG members would like to see it.
Listen i got this info right off Mobils oil adviser and they get it from Toyota. Go find your own info.
They do offer 0w30 as a second choice if ESP cannot be found but it is not the preferred weight.
When i am in Germany later next month i will ask Toyota for a spec sheet and gladly post it for members to look at.
Get this! They even recommend thicker oils too. LOL
Don't choke on that pipe when you smoke it.
This irks you because it goes against your thinner is better religion (yes IMHO you have turned this into a religion and preach it every chance you get) and frankly you don't like it one bit.
First you didn't like Pennzoils (Shell) Noak numbers and claimed they made a mistake in the PDS, now you don't care for what Toyota Germany specs for Toyota, i am quite sure they didn't pull the spec out of their hats.
Toyota Japan had to approve it because they pay the warranty claims.
I chose a later model Corolla at random.
TOYOTA
Modell
Corolla 1.8 VVTi
Motor
B
Jahr
2002-
Empfehlung Kapazität (l)
Motor (B)
1. Wahl Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 (b) 4.4
2. Wahl Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0w30
b. Alternative Empfehlungen: -18°C bis >38°C, 10w30; -12°C bis >38°C, 15w40; -7°C bis >38°C, 20W-50
They do offer 0w30 as a second choice if ESP cannot be found but it is not the preferred weight.
When i am in Germany later next month i will ask Toyota for a spec sheet and gladly post it for members to look at.
Get this! They even recommend thicker oils too. LOL
Don't choke on that pipe when you smoke it.
This irks you because it goes against your thinner is better religion (yes IMHO you have turned this into a religion and preach it every chance you get) and frankly you don't like it one bit.
First you didn't like Pennzoils (Shell) Noak numbers and claimed they made a mistake in the PDS, now you don't care for what Toyota Germany specs for Toyota, i am quite sure they didn't pull the spec out of their hats.
Toyota Japan had to approve it because they pay the warranty claims.
I chose a later model Corolla at random.
TOYOTA
Modell
Corolla 1.8 VVTi
Motor
B
Jahr
2002-
Empfehlung Kapazität (l)
Motor (B)
1. Wahl Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 (b) 4.4
2. Wahl Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0w30
b. Alternative Empfehlungen: -18°C bis >38°C, 10w30; -12°C bis >38°C, 15w40; -7°C bis >38°C, 20W-50
Quote:
It's much too heavy and TOTALLY UNECESSARY !!!
Says who??? Never mind i know who. LOL
It's much too heavy and TOTALLY UNECESSARY !!!
Says who??? Never mind i know who. LOL
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
RIDICULOUS....too heavy and TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.....obstinate.......and IGNORANT.....
OK. Thanks for your opinion.
HDD is the PERFECT oil in this engine going 12K-20K miles oci's and beyond. Nothing ridiculous about that. I would venture to say that a stout long drain oil is necessary in such a case. Open minded and informed people can make wise extended OCI decisions.
And the oil is not "too heavy".
RIDICULOUS....too heavy and TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.....obstinate.......and IGNORANT.....
OK. Thanks for your opinion.
HDD is the PERFECT oil in this engine going 12K-20K miles oci's and beyond. Nothing ridiculous about that. I would venture to say that a stout long drain oil is necessary in such a case. Open minded and informed people can make wise extended OCI decisions.
And the oil is not "too heavy".
- Status
Similar threads
