AC install profit margin? Highway robery?

[KrisZ]

What kind of installation are we talking about here? I assume "the unit" is the condenser that sits outside, right? Is that the only thing that needs installation? What about the air handler, duct work, evaporator, AC lines, refrigerant? Are all these in place or need o be installed.
More details would be nice

To me, the $7k quote doesn't seem like condenser installation only.

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
The whole entire business is a racket. If you call up the A/C supply house and ask them what the A/C unit will cost the contractor, will they tell you? Never.


You can buy HVAC online, and I think at Grainger.

 

[HerrStig]

You might want to look into the easier to install so called "split units"
I've seen them in many places, even on big ferry boats where they are used to cool the main passenger lounges. The compressor and condenser go outside on a pad and one combo coolant pipe, power lead and evap drain go to the wall unit which looks like a window unit with the back removed and is mounted on a wall.

 

[javacontour]

I don't really care what someone's profit margin is. I care of the product or service is a good value.

In other words, if they lose money on selling and installing it, but it doesn't work, how is that good for me.

But if another outfit can make a boat load of money, but it works better than what anyone else has and it saves me buckets of money on my utility bills, then it may be an excellent value.

Profit is not the right measure, it's value.

I don't care what someone makes. I care that I'm getting good value for my money.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't really care what someone's profit margin is. I care of the product or service is a good value.

In other words, if they lose money on selling and installing it, but it doesn't work, how is that good for me.

But if another outfit can make a boat load of money, but it works better than what anyone else has and it saves me buckets of money on my utility bills, then it may be an excellent value.

Profit is not the right measure, it's value.

I don't care what someone makes. I care that I'm getting good value for my money.
You need to separate the value of labor(and knowledge) and value of material. I doubt if there is any HACV product you cannot buy individually.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't really care what someone's profit margin is. I care of the product or service is a good value.

In other words, if they lose money on selling and installing it, but it doesn't work, how is that good for me.

But if another outfit can make a boat load of money, but it works better than what anyone else has and it saves me buckets of money on my utility bills, then it may be an excellent value.

Profit is not the right measure, it's value.

I don't care what someone makes. I care that I'm getting good value for my money.
You need to separate the value of labor(and knowledge) and value of material. I doubt if there is any HACV product you cannot buy individually.


Not really. If I need an HVAC system in my home, I don't really care if the profit is made on hardware or labor. What I care about is am I getting good value for the bottom line of the bill.

As I said, the company can lose money on both selling me a system for a price lower than any competitor. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter that I paid the lowest price, I have nothing of value to show for that low price.

Conversely, a higher cost system that works and saves me money has infinitely more value than a low cost, non-working system.

 

[oldoak2000]

Times have changed. New R410 refrigerant means ANYBODY can buy the equipment DIRECT, at cost, saving over 33% cost of new system.
Goto http://ingramswaterandair.com/heating-conditioning-split-system-heat-pump-c-45_150.html and have a look; prices INCLUDE free shipping to your front door.
LEARN how to do the physical/mechanical installation YOURSELF (which is about 33% of the cost), then pay an epa tech $500 off/season to braze the lines/vac, and connect electrical, and your good to go ( and following codes too!).

There is even a company selling a true DIY mini-split-ductless; no line vac needed (MR COOL DIY): http://www.homedepot.com/p/MRCOOL-DIY-18...-230A/207074950

so, sourcing yourself, and physical install yourself, and save 66% + cost of new system.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't really care what someone's profit margin is. I care of the product or service is a good value.

In other words, if they lose money on selling and installing it, but it doesn't work, how is that good for me.

But if another outfit can make a boat load of money, but it works better than what anyone else has and it saves me buckets of money on my utility bills, then it may be an excellent value.

Profit is not the right measure, it's value.

I don't care what someone makes. I care that I'm getting good value for my money.
You need to separate the value of labor(and knowledge) and value of material. I doubt if there is any HACV product you cannot buy individually.


Not really. If I need an HVAC system in my home, I don't really care if the profit is made on hardware or labor. What I care about is am I getting good value for the bottom line of the bill.

As I said, the company can lose money on both selling me a system for a price lower than any competitor. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter that I paid the lowest price, I have nothing of value to show for that low price.

Conversely, a higher cost system that works and saves me money has infinitely more value than a low cost, non-working system.
I meant you can do your own labor and apply value to that. I just went through this with a car AC system. Bought the tools, parts and educated my self and did it at home saving at least 2/3s having a shop do it.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ

I meant you can do your own labor and apply value to that. I just went through this with a car AC system. Bought the tools, parts and educated my self and did it at home saving at least 2/3s having a shop do it.


And I'm taking the P5 in tomorrow to have the noisy AC fixed. (Likely a compressor or clutch, I see it wobble when it kicks on.)

A day off is worth more than spending time swapping parts in my car. Not to mention I'd have to go have the refrig evacuated before I'd swap any parts, do my swap, then have them pull a vacuum and recharge the system.

Seems I'd spend MORE time running back and forth for little gain.

The value to me is dropping off and picking up my car only once, not a two or three day affair while it all gets done.

 

[SirTanon]

Depends on the company that quotes you, does the work, etc...

About 4 months ago, the coil portion of the downstairs A/C in our house failed, and we lost all cold air. Because the original unit was 10+ years old, and new units used better tech, etc.. we decided to have the entire downstairs system replaced.

The company that came out diagnose the issue tried to quote me $9,000 for a 2.5-ton, 14-Seer system, including the outside compressor/heat exchanger, upstairs coil, blower, installation, etc..

I went online and found a range of prices, down as low as about $4500 installed.. Ended up going through Home Depot, paying abot $5800, and because I went through HD, getting 0% financing for 3 years. Also, the unit that was installed through HD is a Lennox unit, which we know is a good brand. Home Depot contracted out the work to a company called 'Chas Roberts', who has a great reputation, and as it turns out, installed the original A/C in the home as part of the new build.

You can bet that the company who wanted to charge me $9,000 (for a cheaper-brand unit, I should add), was including MASSIVE mark-up on the install. They also wouldn't finance for under 9.9% interest.

Call Home Depot - you'll be surprised.

Oh.. and one other thing - Because the Lennox unit that was installed by Chas Roberts/Home Depot has a 3-year "bumper to bumper" warranty, they threw in 3 annual system check-ups for free because that reduces the chances it will break during the warranty. IMHO, this also helps reduce the odds it will break just out of warranty too!

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: SHOZ

I meant you can do your own labor and apply value to that. I just went through this with a car AC system. Bought the tools, parts and educated my self and did it at home saving at least 2/3s having a shop do it.


And I'm taking the P5 in tomorrow to have the noisy AC fixed. (Likely a compressor or clutch, I see it wobble when it kicks on.)

A day off is worth more than spending time swapping parts in my car. Not to mention I'd have to go have the refrig evacuated before I'd swap any parts, do my swap, then have them pull a vacuum and recharge the system.

Seems I'd spend MORE time running back and forth for little gain.

The value to me is dropping off and picking up my car only once, not a two or three day affair while it all gets done.
It's your call. I did my own AC at home in the car all but exchanging the evaporator and condenser for new, all under $500. That's, a vacuum pump, r134a, gauges, compressor, orings, oil, filter/dryer sock and miscellaneous items. Figured I saved at least a $1000. Took a couple days but could do it in a day now the second time around.

 

[javacontour]

Yep,

I've spent enough days working on my daughter's 99 MGM. We did motor oil and trans fluid changes on Friday. Did my car yesterday.

I've been going to this guy for almost 20 years now. A new compressor is $400. Probably a couple of bills for them to R&R both the compressor and the refrigerant.

It still blows ice cold, but I can see the pully wobble when the compressor kicks on, so it's no likely long for this world.

Probably my big savings is getting to it before it grenades and more components need replacing.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Yep,

I've spent enough days working on my daughter's 99 MGM. We did motor oil and trans fluid changes on Friday. Did my car yesterday.

I've been going to this guy for almost 20 years now. A new compressor is $400. Probably a couple of bills for them to R&R both the compressor and the refrigerant.

It still blows ice cold, but I can see the pully wobble when the compressor kicks on, so it's no likely long for this world.

Probably my big savings is getting to it before it grenades and more components need replacing.
That's where I was at. The system still worked but the clutch coil shorted and opened up. Then the clutch pulley bearing went bad. They have kits on Amazon with 80% of what you need for under $00 compressor and clutch included.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: spiritrider
Twenty (20) years ago, I took a couple of HVAC courses at the local state Voc Tech college, then took an EPA certification course and passed the exam at a local HVAC distributor. Those were prerequisites to them selling me a system.

A buddy and I with the phone support of a really helpful tech at the distributor, we each purchased the necessary equipment, tools and supplies. We did the installation and maintenance ourselves. We just replaced his system about a month ago, and knock on wood my system is still going strong. Haven't had to add a drop of refrigerant in all that time.

If you are a reasonably competent DIY auto mechanic with competent mechanical/plumbing/electrical installation skills and are willing to take the time to learn the minimal necessary HVAC knowledge, there is no reason you can't DIY a HVAC system.
I would very much like to do this myself. The vast majority of HVAC distributers here I've found won't even talk to me as I'm not 'licensed'. Neither would the manufacturer of my own unit: Janitrol. So I figured it out on my own.

Knowledge is Power and greatly reduces the odds of being ripped off.

I've already crunched through an ACCA Man. J load calculation and Man. D duct calculation. Both supply & return & filter area were undersized. I hired a young tech to install a TXV I bought and a sight glass. I bought a set of R22 gauges to read my own pressures. Studied a used HVAC textbook to learn how it all works.

The Janitrol is now 27yrs old and keeps ticking along. Sure breathes better through a proper duct system.

I'm competent enough in my MEP skills to install my own HVAC system if I could just get the parts.

I'm interested in any advice you could provide. TIA.

 

[SZR48207]

Originally Posted By: oldoak2000
Times have changed. New R410 refrigerant means ANYBODY can buy the equipment DIRECT, at cost, saving over 33% cost of new system.
Goto http://ingramswaterandair.com/heating-conditioning-split-system-heat-pump-c-45_150.html and have a look; prices INCLUDE free shipping to your front door.
LEARN how to do the physical/mechanical installation YOURSELF (which is about 33% of the cost), then pay an epa tech $500 off/season to braze the lines/vac, and connect electrical, and your good to go ( and following codes too!).

There is even a company selling a true DIY mini-split-ductless; no line vac needed (MR COOL DIY): http://www.homedepot.com/p/MRCOOL-DIY-18...-230A/207074950

so, sourcing yourself, and physical install yourself, and save 66% + cost of new system.


Thank you for the link. Have you ordered from them personally?

 

[oldoak2000]

yep; they sell ton of stuff on ebay too. all great prices

 

[EA82]

Ive been doing HVAC for 12 years, installed a 2.5 ton heat pump split system at my house 3 years ago and it cost me to buy it $2400. That price included a back up heat strip, float switch, concrete slab, thermostat. Where did you get $1000 ?? what kind of mickey mouse AC unit is that ? The one thing I have noticed over the years is that prices now are a lot lower now days than they where 10 years ago, at least down here in FL, Competition is very high right now.
If you can buy it yourself and install it go for it, good for you. Surgeon knows and can do something you cant that's why he's charging you for his services.