9 years behind the times.

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Originally Posted By: eljefino
It's respectful of ones teammates and workmates (across teams) to stand up for them when bullied.


"Bullied" has to be the most over-used excuse in America today.

You appear to have missed this part:

It is respectful to ones teammates and coworkers to keep one's personal issues out of the workplace because it gets in the way of the job.

But please do explain to me why none of Alejandro Villanueva's teammates supported him and his choice?
He was abandoned by his teammates and coworkers and left standing alone to defend his principles.

 
Originally Posted By: Anduril
Originally Posted By: Astro14

No.

Not patriotism.

Understanding. That's what time in uniform would've imparted. To you, too, had you served.

Kneeling is most certainly not respectful. It is a deliberate, considered, refusal to be respectful. When appropriate, a ship, or soldier, will render honors. One renders honors to the flag, via a salute, ships render honors to other ships, via manning the rails, to admirals, or kings, or presidents, via a firing of a gun salute. Rendering honors is formal, deliberate, and meaningful IF you're aware of the traditions. That's why it's done for veterans' funerals (21 gun salute).

The traditions go back hundreds of years, but saluting, standing at attention, or hand over the heart, are how an individual renders honors to the flag. A sign of respect.

Refusing to render honors is a lot like refusing to shake an extended hand. A deliberately rude gesture intended to disrespect the occasion.

A snub.

So, yeah, the players are being deliberately disrespectful to the flag. And they know it.

Period.

Let me make it even more simple: if kneeling were respectful, then Kaepernick wouldn't have chosen to kneel as his form of protest.

Disrespect, like how our country was literally founded by people who disrespected their government so much they refused to pay their taxes and started shooting people? Yet now they're the patriots and the protestors today are disrespectful. Got it.

Sometimes it pays to remember our roots. They're entitled to their opinion, you're entitled to yours, and it'll be settled on election day.
.

It does pay to remember your roots and traditions. Please explain why Dallas was not allowed to wear patches to support the Dallas pd and their murdered cops. Who that offend ? Why was the former ranger chastised because he chose to honer our anthem, service members, his brothers in arms ? Who did he offend? Why was Tim tebo not allowed to kneel in prayer? Who did he offend ?
 
Originally Posted By: Kira
"Let me guess...zero time in uniform?" The ultimate hall pass for judging other people's patriotism.
.

Pretty much.
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
L
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Don't give me that bit about America not working for Minorities. I guess that's why we have an undocumented immigration overload problem-- because it's so well known everywhere that you don't stand a chance for a better life in America?

If you're a minority, and you do things right, work hard in school and on your job, you WILL get ahead and seize the American dream same as anyone. The system works, if you apply yourself and don't make excuses. You want to hang in the 'hood and do mishchief and Rage Against the Machine then you may not seize the Dream as certainly as someone who keeps themselves on the Straight and Narrow and works hard in school and in their job.


Man, you just don't get it, and you are so delusional, that you think you do.

The protests are revolving around the fact that as a Person of Color (not just Black people), when you have an interaction with a police officer, your chances of winding up in the morgue are much, much higher than a white person in the EXACT same circumstances.

Yes, if you are a POC, and you NEVER have an interaction with a police officer in your life, the American Dream is very much attainable.
But the problem is, when a POC has an interaction with an officer, there is a much higher chance of the POC having a really bad day, sometimes through no fault of their own.

This fact, and only this fact, is what the protests started off about.
People have twisted things so much to meet their own personal agendas, or to belittle other citizens feelings on the matter.

Mostly, the people who are so offended at the fact that people are protesting, are upset that they are having to witness it themselves.
They don't care if the people are right that there are bad things happening, they just want these protesters to shut up about it.
See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No evil.
That's their mantra in life, and if you force them to See it, they explode.

By the way, I love Rage Against the Machine.
I got to see Prophets of Rage last year at Red Rocks.
Absolutely fantastic concert.
You probably don't care, but I wanted to share that.

BC.


You automatically lose the argument when you make personal attacks and name-calling on fellow forum members simply because they hold a different opinion than yourself.

Please try to gain control of your emotions or this thread will soon disappear.


Bladecutter is pretty much telling it like it is.
Nobody should take offense at this.
Please remind yourself that you aren't a mod and that it isn't your place to advise fellow members on appropriate discourse.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

You automatically lose the argument when you make personal attacks and name-calling on fellow forum members simply because they hold a different opinion than yourself.

Please try to gain control of your emotions or this thread will soon disappear.



Please remind yourself that you aren't a mod and that it isn't your place to advise fellow members on appropriate discourse.


The very definition of "Irony".
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter


Man, you just don't get it, and you are so delusional, that you think you do.

I believe you to be above the tactic of when someone doesn't climb onto or march alongside the victimhood band wagon, they're shouted down and a label applied in an attempt to marginalize any further expression of ideas from that person or group, so I'll digress any further on the label placing back-and-forth.

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

The protests are revolving around the fact that as a Person of Color (not just Black people), when you have an interaction with a police officer, your chances of winding up in the morgue are much, much higher than a white person in the EXACT same circumstances.


While this may be the false narrative being repeated with the regularity of a propaganda campaign, that does not lend it the statistical truth to bear up under scrutiny. It espouses the belief by some groups that law enforcement officers are somehow out to get POC while all others receive a free pass, all based on race and not on actions or circumstances during the encounter. The hard fact is that the encounter that launched most of the false narrative ( i.e. hands up don't shoot) was an attack on an innocent police officer initiated by the suspect who had just robbed a convenience store clerk POC (Indian ethnicity). Michael Brown launched the attack, the officer never exited his vehicle. Michael Brown attempted to disarm the officer and due in part to physical size and strength differences beat the officer badly. Because the police can't just call it quits and run home the officer exited the vehicle and attempted to hold Brown accountable for the felony assault. Instead of surrendering Brown chose to launch a 2nd attack, charging or bum rushing as I believe a grand jury witness described it, the officer. Having just been badly beat up and disarmed by the 300+ lb assailant, the officer of almost half the size and weight drew and fired in defense of his life. No hands were ever up, no don't shoot was ever shouted, no kneeling surrender posture was ever taken. It was a 2nd attack intended by all indications to finish what the 1st attack didn't. DOJ literally flooded the area with federal agents to gather and uncover all shreds of testimonial evidence and that is the truth that was uncovered.


Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

Yes, if you are a POC, and you NEVER have an interaction with a police officer in your life, the American Dream is very much attainable.
But the problem is, when a POC has an interaction with an officer, there is a much higher chance of the POC having a really bad day, sometimes through no fault of their own.

This fact, and only this fact, is what the protests started off about.


Perception and bias, not fact.

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

People have twisted things so much to meet their own personal agendas, or to belittle other citizens feelings on the matter.


Agreed, for the most part.


Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

Mostly, the people who are so offended at the fact that people are protesting, are upset that they are having to witness it themselves.
They don't care if the people are right that there are bad things happening, they just want these protesters to shut up about it.
See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No evil.
That's their mantra in life, and if you force them to See it, they explode.


No, that's not it. It's about celebrities and/or pro sports figures using an intentional disrespect of the flag of the nation whose precepts and laws enabled them to achieve the lifestyle they enjoy, to perpetuate a narrative that has fundamental flaws and half truths throughout its foundation.


Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

By the way, I love Rage Against the Machine.
I got to see Prophets of Rage last year at Red Rocks.
Absolutely fantastic concert.
You probably don't care, but I wanted to share that.

BC.


Was referring more to the concept than the band, but I understand your point.
 
This thread is still open? Wow.

My take? There are people out there who have much more horrible messages that our big Chief has been mysteriously silent about.

Regardless of how wrong this issue is or isn't, he's only making a big deal out of it as a matter of political pandering.

Where the issue itself is concerned, our nation started with a bunch of yahoos dressing as Native Americans and engaging in a massive act of vandalism. We hail them as heroes. Protest is a very healthy thing for a nation, and it isn't always an attractive thing.

Now I'm really going to open a can of worms: The Bellamy salute doesn't have a friggin thing to do with being a patriot or not, and has nothing to do with respecting our flag or not. Until almost the turn of the last century, nobody had even done such a thing.

All of this started because Bellamy recounted the actions of one man who had nothing to do with the government or military. Saluting the flag was raising your upturned hand to the flag like a flower girl. Once they quickly found that dumb, then it was shooting your hand up toward the flag like a Nazi until 1942, and then it was hand over your heart, and then some people were allowed to do a different salute.

There wasn't even flag code until the 1920s. Saluting, and over heart, or whatever is cool and all, but let's not make this out to be more than what it really is. It's something that was put together by a couple of dudes well well well after the founding of our nation.

Do I follow flag code? Sure. Why not?

Is it this earth shattering thing that a lot of people make it out to be? Nope. Not really. If all of our founding fathers were to wake up today and see you performing flag code, they wouldn't even know what the heck you were doing.
 
"I've learned that I don't know what it's like to be from Dade County, I don't know what it's like to be from Oakland," Villanueva said. "I can't tell you I know what my teammates have gone through, so I'm not going to pretend like I have the righteous sort of voice to tell you that you should stand up for the national anthem. It's protected by our constitution and our country. It's the freedom of speech.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20819...one-intentional
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter


Man, you just don't get it, and you are so delusional, that you think you do.

I believe you to be above the tactic of when someone doesn't climb onto or march alongside the victimhood band wagon, they're shouted down and a label applied in an attempt to marginalize any further expression of ideas from that person or group, so I'll digress any further on the label placing back-and-forth.

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

The protests are revolving around the fact that as a Person of Color (not just Black people), when you have an interaction with a police officer, your chances of winding up in the morgue are much, much higher than a white person in the EXACT same circumstances.


While this may be the false narrative being repeated with the regularity of a propaganda campaign, that does not lend it the statistical truth to bear up under scrutiny. It espouses the belief by some groups that law enforcement officers are somehow out to get POC while all others receive a free pass, all based on race and not on actions or circumstances during the encounter. The hard fact is that the encounter that launched most of the false narrative ( i.e. hands up don't shoot) was an attack on an innocent police officer initiated by the suspect who had just robbed a convenience store clerk POC (Indian ethnicity). Michael Brown launched the attack, the officer never exited his vehicle. Michael Brown attempted to disarm the officer and due in part to physical size and strength differences beat the officer badly. Because the police can't just call it quits and run home the officer exited the vehicle and attempted to hold Brown accountable for the felony assault. Instead of surrendering Brown chose to launch a 2nd attack, charging or bum rushing as I believe a grand jury witness described it, the officer. Having just been badly beat up and disarmed by the 300+ lb assailant, the officer of almost half the size and weight drew and fired in defense of his life. No hands were ever up, no don't shoot was ever shouted, no kneeling surrender posture was ever taken. It was a 2nd attack intended by all indications to finish what the 1st attack didn't. DOJ literally flooded the area with federal agents to gather and uncover all shreds of testimonial evidence and that is the truth that was uncovered.


Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

Yes, if you are a POC, and you NEVER have an interaction with a police officer in your life, the American Dream is very much attainable.
But the problem is, when a POC has an interaction with an officer, there is a much higher chance of the POC having a really bad day, sometimes through no fault of their own.

This fact, and only this fact, is what the protests started off about.


Perception and bias, not fact.

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

People have twisted things so much to meet their own personal agendas, or to belittle other citizens feelings on the matter.


Agreed, for the most part.


Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

Mostly, the people who are so offended at the fact that people are protesting, are upset that they are having to witness it themselves.
They don't care if the people are right that there are bad things happening, they just want these protesters to shut up about it.
See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No evil.
That's their mantra in life, and if you force them to See it, they explode.


No, that's not it. It's about celebrities and/or pro sports figures using an intentional disrespect of the flag of the nation whose precepts and laws enabled them to achieve the lifestyle they enjoy, to perpetuate a narrative that has fundamental flaws and half truths throughout its foundation.


Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

By the way, I love Rage Against the Machine.
I got to see Prophets of Rage last year at Red Rocks.
Absolutely fantastic concert.
You probably don't care, but I wanted to share that.

BC.


Was referring more to the concept than the band, but I understand your point.

+1 to LoneRanger
 
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Alejandro Villanueva told reporters Monday that his standing alone on the field for the national anthem before the Steelers-Bears game Sunday was a mix up, and he's "embarrassed" for it.

"Every single time I see that picture of me standing by myself, I feel embarrassed,” Villanueva said (via the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette).


http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/ale...681ccymxd37n6q7


Did you see the interview with his coach?
His coach was very angry at Villanueva.

Probably a very good idea to apologize and get back in the good graces of the coach.

Is the workplace where we should be expressing our poitical views? Personally, I tell my employees that religion, politics and sports are best kept off the clock...they are paid to produce.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
It's a double edged sword. If we look at the football field as the workplace and forbid politics, the Pledge of Allegiance itself may not pass that bar.


I don't understand. Are you saying that sports are not an occupation and the playing field or court is not the workplace?

As far as "forbidding" politics, when dining at a restaurant do you think its appropriate for the waitstaff to espouse their political views? Many people would consider it to be inappropriate and possibly discontinue dining there.

In a different context, a person considers a new car purchase and the salesman starts complaining about why he dislikes the political party the car buyer thinks highly of. In this day and age of strong partisanship it could easily result in a lost sale.

If I said "forbidden" then I misspoke. I would say it is at a minimum "highly inappropriate" and risks alienating customers. This is what we are seeing now in the sports arena. i would contend it is no more appropriate for athletes to force their political views on the audience any more than it is acceptable for a waitstaff or a salesperson or a physician to offer unsolicited political opinion. Politics are inflammatory today and only good for business if that business happens to be a "news" station wanting to attract viewers of a particular opinion.

It does introduce another angle...are the displays of nationalism prior to the start of a game only a stage prop for the scheduled entertainment? A means to get the audience "involved" in the show ahead?
 
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Its very interesting reading all the posts with the different viewpoints on this issue. Hopefully it doesn't get locked.


Yes I agree.

I think we should and can be respectful of our flag, our anthem, our military, as well as the right to protest.

From what I read and see, many of the NFL players are trying to figure out how to do all of those things. It's helping that they seem to be respecting each other's viewpoints.

That's progress and a lesson for all of us. Let's not get distracted by extremist viewpoints on either side. Instead, let there be dialogue and sincere attempts to understand each other's viewpoints.
 
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer


From what I read and see, many of the NFL players are trying to figure out how to do all of those things. It's helping that they seem to be respecting each other's viewpoints.

That's progress and a lesson for all of us. Let's not get distracted by extremist viewpoints on either side. Instead, let there be dialogue and sincere attempts to understand each other's viewpoints.


I do not consider Lebron James tweet to the standing POTUS to have been in any respectful.

Even if one does not respect the man in the office, the position of that office commands respect.

His ghetto response, or atleast his choice to use ghetto vernacular will be read by impressionable school age children for many years to come.
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer


From what I read and see, many of the NFL players are trying to figure out how to do all of those things. It's helping that they seem to be respecting each other's viewpoints.

That's progress and a lesson for all of us. Let's not get distracted by extremist viewpoints on either side. Instead, let there be dialogue and sincere attempts to understand each other's viewpoints.


I do not consider Lebron James tweet to the standing POTUS to have been in any respectful.

Even if one does not respect the man in the office, the position of that office commands respect.

His ghetto response, or atleast his choice to use ghetto vernacular will be read by impressionable school age children for many years to come.
My momma always taught me that respect is earned.
 
One very big aspect of that incident you missed LoneRanger was that there was a struggle for officer Wilson's gun... And that is discharged in his vehicle. Good, bad or indifferent that foolish kid attempted to disarm the officer one time. He was not going to get a second chance to do it again. And rightfully so.

Going back in history one can look at the Massachusetts 54th regiment who were all black men serving under the flag of the United States. They did so in order to prove they were ready, willing, and fully capable of doing so. They served under a flag and for a nation that was very far away from where it needed to be. But, these men did so because they had some faith and belief that better days would be ahead for their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc.. A young man served under the flag in WW 1 in which he saved over 70 men of all colors. Under that flag. Other men served in WW II to build upon what the Massachusetts 54th regiment had started a couple of generations before them. They served in a circumstance in which the nation was still not where it needed to be. The flag does not represent how great things are, how great our leadership is, and or anything else. It represents the best of us, the faith and hope that we can continue to get better, and the sacrifice of all those great men and women who served it's people. There's a place and time to do certain things... And there's a time to not do so. People's memorial services is not the place, time or circumstance to make strong statements about controversial issues. And yet... We had a fool do just that in two separate memorial services. Making those two terrible circumstances about himself and what he thought... When it should have been about those children, their families, and those fallen officers. It takes quite a pompous, arrogant, and downright totally self conceited moron to have done such a thing. So, there should be little surprise at people doing what they are doing in the national football league. They got their marching orders from another individual who was just as pompous, ignorant of circumstances, and fully self absorbed as they are. Another time to be very mindful and respectful is the presentation of the flag and national anthem. That time it is not about YOU. It is about those who served this nation, who gave their lives, who gave their bodies, gave their minds, gave their all in the same hope, faith and belief that better days can be ahead of us. Just like that of the men if the Massachusetts 54th regiment. If those men could have seen people who looked like them be paid millions of dollars playing a game, someone who's phenotype was very similar to their own be elected president, seeing a man who played basketball be one of the richest men in this country.... They would marvel at that. They may well not be pleased or happy with everything and all things going on in this country now. But I would bet they would still want people to stand up. To recognize their sacrifice, the sacrifice of so may others and to be mindful of just how fortunate they are to be living where they are living. And to know when... It is time to be making a statement... And when to be reverent, peaceful, and acknowledge when the time is not about YOU... But about others, and what they did and have done, what they had given, to give you the great opportunity to be grossly overpaid for playing a game.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer


From what I read and see, many of the NFL players are trying to figure out how to do all of those things. It's helping that they seem to be respecting each other's viewpoints.

That's progress and a lesson for all of us. Let's not get distracted by extremist viewpoints on either side. Instead, let there be dialogue and sincere attempts to understand each other's viewpoints.


I do not consider Lebron James tweet to the standing POTUS to have been in any respectful.

Even if one does not respect the man in the office, the position of that office commands respect.

His ghetto response, or atleast his choice to use ghetto vernacular will be read by impressionable school age children for many years to come.
My momma always taught me that respect is earned.


We'll your momma failed you if she said calling any President a "bum" on a national platform is OK.
Did momma say when one person takes a convo to the gutter that you should follow right down there too?
There were several responses that Lebron could have penned that would not have disrespected himself in the process.
 
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