i agree shutler
5w20 Problems
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Originally Posted By: modularv8
*** Optimum Viscosity Grade
Just in reading the first 2 sentences in that book, there are pretty blatant half-truths and weasel words that make me question the objectivity of the author right off the bat:
-he states that decreased viscosity leads to increased consumption (while true in theory, in actual practice the difference in many engines is negligible, to the point where an owner will never notice; and secondly, an increase in consumption isn't necessarily a bad thing)
-he then states that lower viscosity "may lead" to increased engine wear "up to" 30%. This is pretty much the ultimate in weasel wording. While it may have a factual basis (I don't know, because I don't see the basis behind it) , in actual practice it's a totally specious claim if lower viscosity oil is used in a car for which it's specified.
I also have to wonder if the manufacturers specify a "minimum" HT/HS, what variability do they allow? I simply can't believe they're specifying an oil at the exact edge of acceptability, since it's known the oil is going to shear during its service life.
Keep in mind, I'm not questioning your experience--if you're finding the oil is shearing to the point of effecting performance, I think you made the right call in changing it. I do think another option would be to look for a more shear-stable, thicker 20W oil, though.
*** Optimum Viscosity Grade
Just in reading the first 2 sentences in that book, there are pretty blatant half-truths and weasel words that make me question the objectivity of the author right off the bat:
-he states that decreased viscosity leads to increased consumption (while true in theory, in actual practice the difference in many engines is negligible, to the point where an owner will never notice; and secondly, an increase in consumption isn't necessarily a bad thing)
-he then states that lower viscosity "may lead" to increased engine wear "up to" 30%. This is pretty much the ultimate in weasel wording. While it may have a factual basis (I don't know, because I don't see the basis behind it) , in actual practice it's a totally specious claim if lower viscosity oil is used in a car for which it's specified.
I also have to wonder if the manufacturers specify a "minimum" HT/HS, what variability do they allow? I simply can't believe they're specifying an oil at the exact edge of acceptability, since it's known the oil is going to shear during its service life.
Keep in mind, I'm not questioning your experience--if you're finding the oil is shearing to the point of effecting performance, I think you made the right call in changing it. I do think another option would be to look for a more shear-stable, thicker 20W oil, though.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: modularv8
*** Optimum Viscosity Grade
Just in reading the first 2 sentences in that book, there are pretty blatant half-truths and weasel words that make me question the objectivity of the author right off the bat:
-he states that decreased viscosity leads to increased consumption (while true in theory, in actual practice the difference in many engines is negligible, to the point where an owner will never notice; and secondly, an increase in consumption isn't necessarily a bad thing)
-he then states that lower viscosity "may lead" to increased engine wear "up to" 30%. This is pretty much the ultimate in weasel wording. While it may have a factual basis (I don't know, because I don't see the basis behind it) , in actual practice it's a totally specious claim if lower viscosity oil is used in a car for which it's specified.
I also have to wonder if the manufacturers specify a "minimum" HT/HS, what variability do they allow? I simply can't believe they're specifying an oil at the exact edge of acceptability, since it's known the oil is going to shear during its service life.
As far as Ford is concerned, they don't specify a variability but a minimum HTHSV of 2.6 cSt. Some OEMs are better at design, QC, and tolerances and their engines hold up better. In general, getting down below the minimum stated HTHSV specified for a particular engine may cause problems (some without notice over time, but gradual). I believe the author is trying to encompass the general in regard to engines. However, the ideal operating viscosity of 9 to 12 cSt @ 100C in an engine is well known.
Quote:
Keep in mind, I'm not questioning your experience--if you're finding the oil is shearing to the point of effecting performance, I think you made the right call in changing it. I do think another option would be to look for a more shear-stable, thicker 20W oil, though.
Exactly what I have done. Just sharing my experience and knowledge for others.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
*** Optimum Viscosity Grade
Just in reading the first 2 sentences in that book, there are pretty blatant half-truths and weasel words that make me question the objectivity of the author right off the bat:
-he states that decreased viscosity leads to increased consumption (while true in theory, in actual practice the difference in many engines is negligible, to the point where an owner will never notice; and secondly, an increase in consumption isn't necessarily a bad thing)
-he then states that lower viscosity "may lead" to increased engine wear "up to" 30%. This is pretty much the ultimate in weasel wording. While it may have a factual basis (I don't know, because I don't see the basis behind it) , in actual practice it's a totally specious claim if lower viscosity oil is used in a car for which it's specified.
I also have to wonder if the manufacturers specify a "minimum" HT/HS, what variability do they allow? I simply can't believe they're specifying an oil at the exact edge of acceptability, since it's known the oil is going to shear during its service life.
As far as Ford is concerned, they don't specify a variability but a minimum HTHSV of 2.6 cSt. Some OEMs are better at design, QC, and tolerances and their engines hold up better. In general, getting down below the minimum stated HTHSV specified for a particular engine may cause problems (some without notice over time, but gradual). I believe the author is trying to encompass the general in regard to engines. However, the ideal operating viscosity of 9 to 12 cSt @ 100C in an engine is well known.
Quote:
Keep in mind, I'm not questioning your experience--if you're finding the oil is shearing to the point of effecting performance, I think you made the right call in changing it. I do think another option would be to look for a more shear-stable, thicker 20W oil, though.
Exactly what I have done. Just sharing my experience and knowledge for others.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
But there are many reasons why an oil can enter the yellow and red zone. Fuel dilution and excessive shearing are the two main ones I can think of that will put an engine into these caution zones when starting from HTHSV of 2.6 cSt.
Since mid August 2010 I have been running a 0W20 in our 05 Vibe (Toyota engine) which is/was still spec'd for 5W30 (i.e. the 06 with ostensibly the same engine was back spec'd to using XW20). Given its short tripping routine in cold weather I do wonder (worry?) about fuel dilution so I think I will draw a sample this week or next and send it in for analysis just to see how much it has sheared.
But there are many reasons why an oil can enter the yellow and red zone. Fuel dilution and excessive shearing are the two main ones I can think of that will put an engine into these caution zones when starting from HTHSV of 2.6 cSt.
Since mid August 2010 I have been running a 0W20 in our 05 Vibe (Toyota engine) which is/was still spec'd for 5W30 (i.e. the 06 with ostensibly the same engine was back spec'd to using XW20). Given its short tripping routine in cold weather I do wonder (worry?) about fuel dilution so I think I will draw a sample this week or next and send it in for analysis just to see how much it has sheared.
Here is a UOA with M1 0-20 showing the Vis held up very well for 11K+.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1506880
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1506880
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
This oasis report is really a slap in the face of the internet experts claiming that anything but 5w-20 oil in the modular will screw up the VVT parts etc.
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
This oasis report is really a slap in the face of the internet experts claiming that anything but 5w-20 oil in the modular will screw up the VVT parts etc.
Great! Now half-assed factory corn-cobbs (for a problem that should be FIXED by now) are being held up as evidence that 5W20s are bad.
I think we can safely conclude that the Ford VCT engines aren't going to grenade on a thicker-than-spec'ed oil, but there is a big difference between tolerable and optimal. There isn't much evidence to weigh either way but I hope to add to that body of evidence sometime next year. I have some 10W30 (T5) that I will try in my VCT 5.4L and plot the effect it has on VCT operation (datalog). I will also plot what effects it has on oil pressure and oil temp (again,datalog). If I don't have any particular problems, I'll run the oil for a full 8K, 18 month OCI at least). I have the factory calibration in a graph and I can compare what I see to that in all four seasons, starting with winter.
Finally, despite all the hand wringing, I see little evidence that 5W20s are detrimental in the great number of vehicles they are spec for. Of course there are some applications where the factory spec doesn't apply or should be superseded. Again, it all comes down to:
AS THIN AS POSSIBLE, AS THICK AS NECESSARY.
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Great! Now half-assed factory corn-cobbs (for a problem that should be FIXED by now) are being held up as evidence that 5W20s are bad.
I think we can safely conclude that the Ford VCT engines aren't going to grenade on a thicker-than-spec'ed oil, but there is a big difference between tolerable and optimal. There isn't much evidence to weigh either way but I hope to add to that body of evidence sometime next year. I have some 10W30 (T5) that I will try in my VCT 5.4L and plot the effect it has on VCT operation (datalog). I will also plot what effects it has on oil pressure and oil temp (again,datalog). If I don't have any particular problems, I'll run the oil for a full 8K, 18 month OCI at least). I have the factory calibration in a graph and I can compare what I see to that in all four seasons, starting with winter.
Finally, despite all the hand wringing, I see little evidence that 5W20s are detrimental in the great number of vehicles they are spec for. Of course there are some applications where the factory spec doesn't apply or should be superseded. Again, it all comes down to:
AS THIN AS POSSIBLE, AS THICK AS NECESSARY.
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Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
I understand what you are saying about the system being disabled below 18*F. The TSB gives no reason for why the 10W40 shouldn't be used below 20*F which for me leaves a lot to the imagination. Either way I think the engineers really should get back to the drawing board.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
I understand what you are saying about the system being disabled below 18*F. The TSB gives no reason for why the 10W40 shouldn't be used below 20*F which for me leaves a lot to the imagination. Either way I think the engineers really should get back to the drawing board.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
ModV8: I'd like to know where to look to find these parameters (e.g. viscosity compensation, etc). I was able to get my old Win98 laptop going and can now look at the maps and cells for all the EFI programming for a stock 5.4L engine. The only VCT programming things I see are related to EOT and engine speed vs engine load. I can see that the system is totally disabled below 32F EOT and above 270F, with limited operation above 250F and between 50F and 100F. Thus far, I have not figured out how to take this info and put it onto my Mac ( I can only read it in a special program). If I get any free time, I can retype the cells... but don't expect that anytime soon.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
ModV8: I'd like to know where to look to find these parameters (e.g. viscosity compensation, etc). I was able to get my old Win98 laptop going and can now look at the maps and cells for all the EFI programming for a stock 5.4L engine. The only VCT programming things I see are related to EOT and engine speed vs engine load. I can see that the system is totally disabled below 32F EOT and above 270F, with limited operation above 250F and between 50F and 100F. Thus far, I have not figured out how to take this info and put it onto my Mac ( I can only read it in a special program). If I get any free time, I can retype the cells... but don't expect that anytime soon.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
ModV8: I'd like to know where to look to find these parameters (e.g. viscosity compensation, etc). I was able to get my old Win98 laptop going and can now look at the maps and cells for all the EFI programming for a stock 5.4L engine. The only VCT programming things I see are related to EOT and engine speed vs engine load. I can see that the system is totally disabled below 32F EOT and above 270F, with limited operation above 250F and between 50F and 100F. Thus far, I have not figured out how to take this info and put it onto my Mac ( I can only read it in a special program). If I get any free time, I can retype the cells... but don't expect that anytime soon.
Jim: I believe you have more info on VCT algorithm than I do. The information I have comes from a Motorcraft Service Technical Training Document. As far as viscosity compensation, there is a Cam Position Sensor (CPS)on the front timing chain cover of each bank. It tells the PCM whether to advance, retard, or operate in EGR mode. The VCT is hydraulically actuated and regulated by the VCT solenoid which itself is controlled by the information given to the PCM by the CPS. Higher viscosity fluids will exert a greater force on the VCT Phaser Vanes which put it in a different position from where it needs to be. The CPS detects this and the then PCM signals the VCT solenoid to reduce flow to the VCT Phaser to bring back to proper position which is then verified by the Cam Position Sensor. (feed-back loop) That's all I have in terms of using a higher viscosity oil and the VCT operation.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
They are masking noise with thicker oil. I wonder what happens when the temps drop below 20*F with the 10W40 oil. That will be the next problem they'll have to address for those using the 10W40 oil. It might be time for the engineers to go back to the drawing board. Nowhere in the TSB does it say the 5W20 is harmful to the engine.
The VCT system is disabled below 18F. Excessive clatter in some MY Fords is inadequate oil pressure. The VCT system (solenoid/cam position sensor) regulates oil pressure to the VCT phaser, so a higher viscosity oil is compensated by the PCM and the VCT components. The TSB mentions to use MC 10w40 only in temps above -20F. MC 10w40 is some pretty thick stuff for a 40 wt (103 cSt @ 40C, 15 cSt @ 100C). I prefer to run a thick 5w20 or a very thin 5w30 in my truck.
ModV8: I'd like to know where to look to find these parameters (e.g. viscosity compensation, etc). I was able to get my old Win98 laptop going and can now look at the maps and cells for all the EFI programming for a stock 5.4L engine. The only VCT programming things I see are related to EOT and engine speed vs engine load. I can see that the system is totally disabled below 32F EOT and above 270F, with limited operation above 250F and between 50F and 100F. Thus far, I have not figured out how to take this info and put it onto my Mac ( I can only read it in a special program). If I get any free time, I can retype the cells... but don't expect that anytime soon.
Jim: I believe you have more info on VCT algorithm than I do. The information I have comes from a Motorcraft Service Technical Training Document. As far as viscosity compensation, there is a Cam Position Sensor (CPS)on the front timing chain cover of each bank. It tells the PCM whether to advance, retard, or operate in EGR mode. The VCT is hydraulically actuated and regulated by the VCT solenoid which itself is controlled by the information given to the PCM by the CPS. Higher viscosity fluids will exert a greater force on the VCT Phaser Vanes which put it in a different position from where it needs to be. The CPS detects this and the then PCM signals the VCT solenoid to reduce flow to the VCT Phaser to bring back to proper position which is then verified by the Cam Position Sensor. (feed-back loop) That's all I have in terms of using a higher viscosity oil and the VCT operation.
The VVT and the DI no matter the problems and they are and will be because these items are pretty high techie stuff. I remember the computer controlled engines and how they progressed each time I took an auto class to keep upgraded for work.
Years ago I had an engineer from Datsun at the time tell me that ia car is $30,000.00 in parts being sold for $4,000.00
this is an awesome thread!!
my truck calls for 5/20
i had been running MC oil and filter but it ratted in the morning and sometimes when warm at certain rpms. but i had 0 consumption at 3k
i switched to RP 5/30 and a K&N filter. it freaked me out when i started it up and had no clatter with a dry filter!! all the noises went away and it seemed to run fine.
this oci i went back with the MC 820s filter and i ran 5qts valvoline 5/20 with 2 qts valvoline 10/40(some one gave me a case)
it has not rattled since, even at start up. i even thinned it down yesterday with a qt of mmo(also changed the 820s to make room for more oil) still no rattles.
it may be the thicker oil
however its my belief that i had varnish build up in the tensioner and lash limiters that is now gone from the short ocis.
but i do plan on making 5/30 or 0/30 my oil choice because the truck is not new and not tight as it used to be. its my opinion that as an engine ages a slightly heavier oil is beneficial because bearing clearances will increase over time
my truck calls for 5/20
i had been running MC oil and filter but it ratted in the morning and sometimes when warm at certain rpms. but i had 0 consumption at 3k
i switched to RP 5/30 and a K&N filter. it freaked me out when i started it up and had no clatter with a dry filter!! all the noises went away and it seemed to run fine.
this oci i went back with the MC 820s filter and i ran 5qts valvoline 5/20 with 2 qts valvoline 10/40(some one gave me a case)
it has not rattled since, even at start up. i even thinned it down yesterday with a qt of mmo(also changed the 820s to make room for more oil) still no rattles.
it may be the thicker oil
however its my belief that i had varnish build up in the tensioner and lash limiters that is now gone from the short ocis.
but i do plan on making 5/30 or 0/30 my oil choice because the truck is not new and not tight as it used to be. its my opinion that as an engine ages a slightly heavier oil is beneficial because bearing clearances will increase over time
Then again the hydraulic valve lash adjusters have the tighest clearanced of any parts in an engine so you would think they would also show a varnish problem? The more stuff you really don't need the more stuff will cause problems.
Originally Posted By: electrolover
i switched to RP 5/30 and a K&N filter. it freaked me out when i started it up and had no clatter with a dry filter!!
Well it sure isn't the RP, when you started it with a dry filter, the engine ran those few seconds on what traces of oil that were left from the previous fill...
i switched to RP 5/30 and a K&N filter. it freaked me out when i started it up and had no clatter with a dry filter!!
Well it sure isn't the RP, when you started it with a dry filter, the engine ran those few seconds on what traces of oil that were left from the previous fill...
i kinda think the K&N is why myself. it is supposed to be high flow. because like you said it only had trace amounts of MC left in it.
weird thing is i have not run a K&N since, only MC FL 820s filters, and no more rattles....ever, even with a dry new filter.
im sure the tensioner and lash limiters had varnish inside of them because the engine has it everywhere. but with the pressure that goes threw them it makes sense they would be the first to clean up.
now the hard part is getting the rest of the engine clean
weird thing is i have not run a K&N since, only MC FL 820s filters, and no more rattles....ever, even with a dry new filter.
im sure the tensioner and lash limiters had varnish inside of them because the engine has it everywhere. but with the pressure that goes threw them it makes sense they would be the first to clean up.
now the hard part is getting the rest of the engine clean
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