2017 2018 F150 / Raptor Navigator Expedition cold start rattle final repair

[domer10]

Originally Posted by Navi
The only purpose built livery vehicle is the Lincoln MKT "Town Car" livery. The Explorer/Taurus was originally designed with police work in mind and that platform migrated over to the MKT. Its pretty awesome as its very easy to change both the ATF and engine oil out on them. Ive seen them get to 300k+. The problem is no one seems care for its exterior design, but besides that works great. The Continental Livery has same drivetrain.

However everyone enjoys big SUVs picking them up but none of the SUVs are designed for livery work.

So if these two seemingly inexpensive "sprockets" do the job then its just the 10R80 which is the weaklink. That was replaced at 70000 miles.


That's what I mean, you figure ford or a company would specifically design something with simplistic reliable long term drivetrains in mind, because I am sure twin turbo or the way the power is served up in NYC driving doesn't really matter, I mean only you know that, but after warranty is up and say water pump goes etc...downtime and cost is going to suck. Where as if they developed a simplistic engine for livery purpose limo, fleet etc...would be optimal. Unless fuel economy from these motors is enough to offset all other costs long term.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted by 1978elcamino
I would like to know more about engine shampoo


It leaves your hair shiny and full of volume.... I kid I kid. It is basically your average engine cleaner but in a Motorcraft can.

 

[Navi]

The engine shampoo is degreaser.

As for Fords fleet engine the last one was the Duratec 3.7 liter used in police Taurus, police Explorer and MKT. Optionally they had an Ecoboost 3.5 for fleet use but that wasnt as reliable as the 3.7.

The new police fleet engine is the 3 liter which is a punched out 2.7. The 2.7 liter engine they didnt have a lot of problems with. There is a naturally aspirated 3 liter, a hybrid 3 and an Ecoboost 3. The Ecoboost 3 is potent and faster than a Hemi charger.

 

[Navi]

I want to make sure everyone realizes this WILL happen in all engines which use the earlier version sprockets aka cam phasers. There were some posts suggesting it may not happen in all of them. Thats wrong. It will happen.

The jury is out whether the 4th version will cure the problem.

Its a simple device yet this simple device can cause a lot of issues. Oil type has nothing to do with it although I would run a thicker higher quality oil than 5w30 semi synthetic

 

[Navi]

Finally this is the TSB that was done on the vehicle. Placed here for reference.

SSM 48168 - 2017-2018 F-150, 2018-2019 Expedition/Navigator - 3.5L EcoBoost - Ticking/Tapping Or Rattle Type Noise On Start Up After A Cold Soak
Some 2017-2018 F-150 vehicles built on or before 10-Jul-2018 and 2018-2019 Expedition/Navigator vehicles built on or before 8-Apr-2019 equipped with a 3.5L EcoBoost engine may exhibit a ticking, tapping, or rattle type noise from the top front cover area of the engine that last 2-5 seconds on initial start-up after a cold soak. This may be due to a worn variable cam timing (VCT) unit. A TSB is expected to be published 4th quarter of 2019. In the interim, replace all 4 VCT units and update the powertrain control module (PCM) calibration. Do not replace timing chains, tensioners, guides or other timing related components unless inspection clearly identifies a concern. Refer to the Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-01. Claim the labor required to replace VCTs using published labor operations and PCM programming using M-time. Monitor OASIS for updates.

 

[CharlieJ]

What is failing inside the VVT sprocket that is causing all the noise? Every new car now has some sort of VVT, what is Ford doing to have these problems?

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ
What is failing inside the VVT sprocket that is causing all the noise? Every new car now has some sort of VVT, what is Ford doing to have these problems?


There is a pin that locks the vanes in place at "base timing" during startup and idle/low speeds on many Ford cam phasers. This locking pin must have enough clearance to move in and out. Over time it develops clearance and rattles. It's also why a higher viscosity oil will often help prevent the problem, as it provides a better cushion to prevent metal to metal contact. The local Ford dealer went with a 10W-40 synthetic to help this problem. I'm using the M1, HM 10W-30. The use of 0W, and even 5W-20/30 is said to be a known contributor to this problem in hot climates.

I'm absolutely not claiming a more viscous oil is the fix. Only that the local dealership finds that viscosity matters a lot, and that it helps to prevent warranty work.

 

[Navi]

Wow! The Mobil 1 10W40 has a CST@100C of 16! Thats thicker than any of the various oils Ive considered. If you are truly going down that thick route than also throw on the list Chevron Delo 5W40 which has a CST of 15.4. It is rated as API SN Plus.

I personally will not use 5W30 for this particular Ecoboost engine. I have been using Mobil Delvac 1 5W40. This particular engine seems to chop up regular 5W30 oil such as Mobil 1 AS. However since June when the first repairs were done to the vehicle replacing the cam phasers I had been using Mobil Delvac 1 5W40, but it still developed the rattle. The 5W40 CST is rated at 13.8 and the engine was able to chop it down to 12.92 in one batch and 11.71 in another.

If it was Mobil 1 10W40 vs Chevron Delo 5W40 I would go with Chevron Delo. Im finding that HDEOs seem to thin out less than Mobil 1 gas only variants.

It sounds like the dealer went with the thickest off the shelf oil they could find and came up with Mobil 1 10W40 HM.

 

[Navi]

I did a check on the various oils thickness wise. You do have 5W50 oils out there but wherever I looked all were expensive. The thickest most cost effective oils are Mobil 1 15W50 CST 18, Mobil 1 10W40 CST 16 and Chevron Delo 5W40.

These repairs are really tying down the dealerships. So I believe what this dealership did was basically look for the thickest most cost effective oil for their customers which is Mobil 1 10W40. There is also 15W50 at CST 18.

Mobil 1 5W30 AS- 11
Mobil 1 10W30 HM- 12.1
Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 ESP- 13.8
Motul 5W40 Xclean- 14.1
Delo 5W40- 15.4
Mobil 1 10W40- 16...twice as thick as some 5W20s
Mobil 1 15W50- 18

I think the dealership isnt doing this on a whim. I think they talked to someone at Ford who suggested something like this. I used Delvac which is a high quality group 4 oil coming in at 13.8, but it still developed the cold start rattle a second time. I think if you are using 10W30 HM that will only be slightly better than the 5W30. I think you should go thicker and try Delo, 10W40 or 15W50. The Delo is the only one of the group rated API SN Plus and HDEOs perform better in this type of engine. Delo is very cost effective.

I think the dealership put forward the most practical economical thickest full synthetic oil and its a pretty good choice. So just go by the dealership suggestion. The thing is these repairs are costly, time consuming and oftentimes involve backordered parts. Its worth a try to go thicker.