0W-16 Strength & Durability

[wemay]

2005 vs 2018 oil technology and formulation. It would be interesting to see the difference in the AF/AW package between those two oils. It's easier to obtain better wear protection from viscosity, especially if you don't have wear testing data for every oil on the market.

100% agree on trying to find out what makes VW508 "tick". Mercedes Benz' low viscosity 229.71 (EDGE Gold Bottle 0W-20 being one oil with this approval) is in the same category...

Question being: As you stated, what is the realworld OCI of the AF/AW in these oils? We do know the Mfc recommended OCI is at least 10K mi.

 

[wemay]

That spider chart is still qualitative, not quantitative. For example it shows that VW 502 00 and 505 00 have the same emphasis on wear but the values in the approval requirements are different for the actual individual wear tests. Yes the differences are small but they likely are for 508 00 as well.

Point taken.

(read it after pointing out MB299.71 being a stout 0W20 as well)

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

That SAE grade is not the same today.

Really? What was the main difference between then and today?

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

That SAE grade is not the same today.

Really? What was the main difference between then and today? Was a given 5W-20 in say, 1968, somehow superior to one today?

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

That remains one of the big selling points of low viscosity oils today. Easier cold weather starting. Nothing has changed in that regard, with the exception now they're pushing it all year long, in all climates because of CAFE.

Sure. just like 5w30 is and was also a "CAFE" oil. I used to have a Quaker State lubrication guide covering the years from 1987-1996 that contained the manufacturers oil recommendations verbatim. Many (I think mainly GM) said that "5w30 is not recommended for sustained highspeed driving". So obviously, it's not all 'the same' with the advent of SJ era of hydrocracked base oils over solvent dewaxed base stocks in the mid-1990's...

Except for the little caveat in the owners manual that mentions, "A higher viscosity may be better suited, for severe conditions".

Which owner's manual says that? Mine doesn't. It does say something to the effect of maybe change out the (5W-20) oil after 3,000 miles in severe, hot weather service.

And while acknowledge that in some cases higher viscosities may protect better in extreme heat conditions, I would balance that by saying that lower viscosity oils featuring synthetic and blend base stocks carry away the acidic byproducts of cold weather combustion faster upon start up. Something that almost certainly causes as much, if not more, overall wear than high speed operation. But this is moot either way in a relatively well-maintained engine that has no design defects..

 

[kschachn]

Really? What was the main difference between then and today?

It was when HT/HS was introduced, around the 1970s (?) That's not the only time, the SAE altered the minimum HT/HS recently as well. HT/HS is not necessarily tied to a specific grade.

 

[kschachn]

Sure. just like 5w30 is and was also a "CAFE" oil. I used to have a Quaker State lubrication guide covering the years from 1987-1996 that contained the manufacturers oil recommendations verbatim. Many (I think mainly GM) said that "5w30 is not recommended for sustained highspeed driving". So obviously, it's not all 'the same' with the advent of SJ era of hydrocracked base oils over solvent dewaxed base stocks in the mid-1990's...

I'd also say that has a lot to do with improved VII polymers that do not shear as easily, either permanently or temporarily.

 

[duck__dodgers]

I think that some intended applications of 0w-16 are suspect.

The regular ICE Camry that just idles its way to the grocery store... ok.

The that will turn off their engines after l and accelerations? I can see the potential for heat soak in the bearings, and all of a sudden you do have lots of start-stop scenarios at HTHS type

Ive been tempted to try 0w-16 in my hybrid, but have not because it is a far different start stop scenario than a regular ICE....

If a hybrid has an electric oil pump, only run 0w-16. Supposedly long-term use of 0w-20 causes problems as the electric pump can't adjust itself to the change in viscosity.

i am only the messenger. take it up with Toyota

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

I'd also say that has a lot to do with improved VII polymers that do not shear as easily, either permanently or temporarily.

I agree, but it certainly is a combo of both...

I would add EFI over carburetion to that as well. The last carburetors were on 1990 Hondas ironically...

 

[OVERKILL]

If a hybrid has an electric oil pump, only run 0w-16. Supposedly long-term use of 0w-20 causes problems as the electric pump can't adjust itself to the change in viscosity.

i am only the messenger. take it up with Toyota

What happens if you run it in Calgary then?

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

It was when HT/HS was introduced, around the 1970s (?) That's not the only time, the SAE altered the minimum HT/HS recently as well. HT/HS is not necessarily tied to a specific grade.

Yes, but one of the hard sells of 5W-20 beginning around 1998 was the still then fresh memory of the horrific consequences of abusing an engine and leaving 5W-20 (not called Mobil 1) in for extended intervals. I was told they were terrible if not changed frequently but then most oils back then were...

 

[nthach]

If a hybrid has an electric oil pump, only run 0w-16. Supposedly long-term use of 0w-20 causes problems as the electric pump can't adjust itself to the change in viscosity.

i am only the messenger. take it up with Toyota

AFAIK, no car has an electric oil pump for the engine. Just for the transmission if it’s a start/stop or an electrified conventional unit (ZF calls it a HIM, Hydraulic Impulse Module) to keep the shift circuits primed and ready to shift from neutral.

Toyota says in the US, the A25A/M20A is A-OK for 0W-16/20, and up to 15w40 ROW(that, meaning Southeast Asia and Australia, their most important markets outside of the US).

 

[duck__dodgers]

What happens if you run it in Calgary then?

we'll see soon if the current generation of Prii (0w-16) are as bulletproof when they get over 100k miles as the prior gen. of Prii.

i got no dog in this fight except that IMO, I think that today's cars are less likely to hit 200k, 300k miles because the cars need to squeeze out a few more MPG and need to resort to CVT, small displacement turbos, etc. ymmv

 

[duck__dodgers]

AFAIK, no car has an electric oil pump for the engine. Just for the transmission if it’s a start/stop or an electrified conventional unit (ZF calls it a HIM, Hydraulic Impulse Module) to keep the shift circuits primed and ready to shift from neutral.

Toyota says in the US, the A25A/M20A is A-OK for 0W-16/20, and up to 15w40 ROW(that, meaning Southeast Asia and Australia, their most important markets outside of the US).

current gen Prius and Venza and RAV 4. IIRC. Like I said, I am only the messenger. Source is a toyota tech who has seen problems on hybrids from owners who did stick to 0w16.

 

[OVERKILL]

we'll see soon if the current generation of Prii (0w-16) are as bulletproof when they get over 100k miles as the prior gen. of Prii.

i got no dog in this fight except that IMO, I think that today's cars are less likely to hit 200k, 300k miles because the cars need to squeeze out a few more MPG and need to resort to CVT, small displacement turbos, etc. ymmv

My point was simply that temperature has a far bigger impact on viscosity than the grade on the bottle. 0w-16 is very thick when it's -40C. 5w-20/0w-20 at -10C is going to be MUCH thinner.

 

[High Performance Lubricants]

Those engines also don't have high oil temperatures ... so if you looked at what the actual viscosity of the oil is for that 1/4 mile it's a lot thicker than it would be at 200+ F. The actual oil viscosity is probably more like around 30 or 40 is at 200-225 F. They don't use thick oils because they don't want to heat up the entire engine for the run, so the way to do that is to use a much thinner oil and then make the run when the thinner oil is in a certain temperature range that gives the most HP with best protection for the 1/4 mile run.

There are pro stock teams that will heat a 0w3 to 180F (all they can get with a 1500w heater) before making a pass. They still chill the block. Our COF in the pro stock oils get better all the way to 300F. We do it. I have no idea how you could ever pull it off working within the chemical box tied to a donut.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Really? What was the main difference between then and today?

SAE J300 (the official spec that defines the viscosity grades) has changed over the years.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Which owner's manual says that? Mine doesn't.

Toyota OMs do ... been discussed many times.

 

[High Performance Lubricants]

SAE J300 (the official spec that defines the viscosity grades) has changed over the years.

Last update 2015

 

[ZeeOSix]

If a hybrid has an electric oil pump, only run 0w-16. Supposedly long-term use of 0w-20 causes problems as the electric pump can't adjust itself to the change in viscosity.

i am only the messenger. take it up with Toyota

Is there an actual warning in the OM about that? Or is this just info spewed on the 'net by people.