Toyota 22r cam chain tensioner . . .Is factory filter really better.

[Crusader]

Toyota 22r cam chain tensioner . . .Is factory filter really better.

Recently I received some input from a few Toyota Owner Groups about the running an oversized filter on my 22r. I'd like a Conesus from the oil form on this issue. If these quotations are in fact correct then the 22r owner who run non factory filters & especially oversize non factory filters are putting undue stress and wear as mentioned in the quotes. Is there an non oem filter that has the dual pressure valves??? If this is in fact true keeping the oil pump primed would be far more important than running a oversize filter or supposedly better filter Ssuch as a Pure ONE etc.

Thanks,
Crusader

quote:

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The bigger filter is no upgrade. the factory oil filter has dual pressure valves to keep oil pressure up when the engine is off. Test for yourself - shut off the engine with anything other than an o.e. filter on it then wait 15 minutes and remove the oil filter, then try it with an o.e. filter and see the difference. The other filters will come off with almost no mess (oil has all drained back into the pan) the o.e. one will make a mess (because it is retaining the oil in the passages) The filter you want is a 08922-02011 or 90915-yzzd1 or 90915-yzzb1 - black filter, says Toyota on the side, comes in a red box - any of those 3 will work the same.


Try running an o.e. oil filter. The 22r is very sensitive to a good filter and any of the cheap ones (especially fram) can trash the timing chain. I suspect that you are hearing the timing chain being tensioned as the oil pressure comes up.

re: TIMING CHAIN there is no spec for replacing the chain except for wear. When you have the valve cover off to adjust the valves (every 15,000 miles)
look down the front chain housing for a broken upper guide and look down low for scoring on the inside of the timing cover (behind the waterpump) if the chain is bad enough it can wear thru the cover and drain your coolant into the crankcase!!

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Also a prior post form the Oil Form :

quote:

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Chris142
Member
Member # 1614

posted June 07, 2003 01:48 PM
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There is one drawback to using a larger filter. The timing chain tensioner in the 20r,22r and 22r-e is fed by oil pressure.

The filter on these engines is mounted with the threads lower than the endcap, not much but slightly. This will allow the filter to drain back if the drainback valve doesn't work properly.

When the truck is started the un-tensioned timing chain whips around untill the filter fills with oil and pressurizes the tensioner.

In the meantime the timing chain is flying around in the timing cover, this breaks the runners. Once the runners break the chain wont tighten and will eat through the aluminum cover or allow the chain to jump which bends valves.

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[Bill Kapaun]

"This will allow the filter to drain back if the drainback valve doesn't work properly."

That's it pretty much in a nutshell.
FRAMs are pretty notorious for bad ADBVs.

You shouldn't have any problems with a "good" filter with a Silicone ADBV.
That said, my best friend is a staunch Toyata man and won't use anything but the factory filter for the reasons stated above.

 

[Crusader]

I've been using Pure ONE PL30001 oversize filters for the last 3 years. These Pure One have the Anti drain back, but I still have the clank on cold start up and restarts. Prior to that I was using NAPA Gold PH8A equivalent and prior to that I used Fram PH8A's.

Has anybody else used the factroy filter on the 22r and has this eliminated the cam chain noise???

 

[RavenTai]

A lot of users an the Land cruiser board get a "startup rattle" with larger oil filters, even the oversized Toyota filter (15600-41010), I always figured this startup rattle was related the valves before oil got to them, but the 1FZ-FE has a similar DOHC & chain arrangement with an oil pressure actuated chain tensioner, I wonder if our startup rattle is also the timing chain? I have heard of 22r’s that have cut the timing cover so deep it opens a hole to the back of the water pump cavity leaking all of the coolant into the crankcase

I think it has to do with the position of the filter, unlike most American cars where the filter is vertical Toyota mount their filter horizontal, even if the ADBV works to keep oil from flowing out the filter inlet the oil can still flow unrestricted out the filter outlet through the passages and out the lower end bearings over time (sitting overnight) leaving the filter less than half full, if the ADBV does not work the filter can completely empty either way the pump has to fill the filter before oil pressure gets to the parts that need it, in this case larger filter = longer to get oil to the parts

I am a big fan of oversize filters on my Chevy, on it there are no drawbacks and a lot of small potential gains, with a vertically mounted filter it is always full ADBV or not,

I also hate the mess a horizontal filter makes I am considering a remote mount setup for the LC

 

[Chris142]

quote:

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Originally posted by Crusader:

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Also a prior post form the Oil Form :

quote:

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Chris142
Member
Member # 1614

posted June 07, 2003 01:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is one drawback to using a larger filter. The timing chain tensioner in the 20r,22r and 22r-e is fed by oil pressure.

The filter on these engines is mounted with the threads lower than the endcap, not much but slightly. This will allow the filter to drain back if the drainback valve doesn't work properly.

When the truck is started the un-tensioned timing chain whips around untill the filter fills with oil and pressurizes the tensioner.

In the meantime the timing chain is flying around in the timing cover, this breaks the runners. Once the runners break the chain wont tighten and will eat through the aluminum cover or allow the chain to jump which bends valves.

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[/QUOTE]

Someone actully read my post

I think the Toyota engines are one of the few engines that won't benefit from a larger filter due to the timing chain tensioner problem.

If the engine was used continusley w/o being shut down only for maintenance then a bigger filter would be ok. But since everyone starts their cars daily then stick with the small filter.

 

[tom slick]

if you install a remote filter it will not drain out and you'll get instant oil pressure because of that. i have had one on my 22r for years with zero leaks and no more timing chain noises.
the problem is the plastic chain guides. with the chain slapping when loose, it breaks the long straight guide on the tension side, then it chews into the timing cover and into the water passage and makes you think you have a blown head gasket.
there are aftermarket steel backed guides (similar to the early 20/22r double row chain guides) available that will not break. they are the solution to the problem.

 

[Crusader]

How do I tell if my 22r tensioner guides are the early type and not the plastic guides. It's an 85 with a 2 barrel carburetor.

Thanks,
Crusader

 

[T-Keith]

Sounds like they're confusing bypass valves for ADBVs again.

-T

 

[ephwang]

I own a 1985 4x4, 22RE engine, original owner. I've been using an oversize filter since, well since they started specing a smaller filter which wasn't too many years after. Anyway, I too heard the dreaded stories about the plastic guides breaking and at 100k miles I figure I was on borrowed time. Opened it up and the plastic guides were in perfect condition, but the tensioner was heavily grooved and at full extension. I replaced the chain, guides and tensioner. I'm at 185k now with no problems, and still using an oversize filter. Dunno, guess I'm lucky.

 

[tom slick]

quote:

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How do I tell if my 22r tensioner guides are the early type and not the plastic guides. It's an 85 with a 2 barrel carburetor.

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85's only came with a single row timing chain. single row timing chains are the ones with a failure prone chain guide. if you have a double row timing chain then you have bulletproof chain guides. they are not interchangeable but there are aftermarket sources to get stronger guides.

 

[Brent]

I have a 20R and the oil drains out of the filter after shutdown. I don’t think the oil drains back through the pump, but forward through the bearings. The filter is dry on the clean side, but the dirty side still has some oil in it suggesting that the oil didn’t run backwards past the anti-drain back valve through the pump.

I’ve tried many different filters, (large and small) Motorcraft, STP, Supertech, Mobil 1, etc.... When using oversize filters they made the start up noise worse. I doubt that all of the filters I’ve tried all had defective anti-drain back valves.

Right now I’m running an AC PF53 which is a small filter, it fills quickly and reduces the amount of start up noise. This engine doesn’t have lifters, so all of the noise is the timing chain tensioners.

I cannot see how any filter can retain the oil when it drains out the center tube except for the remote system that was mentioned above.

I’m running a K&N on my Tacoma 3.4 and that engine makes zero noise on startup so I’m trying a K&N “HP-1002” (small filter) on my 20R next to see what happens.

Brent

 

[Crusader]

FL-400s 22r Tensioner Success Story!!!

I thought I'd try a Motorcraft FL-400s, just for kicks before I bought the factory Toyota filter. I let it sit overnight just to be sure and now the clank on start-up is gone.

Just the faintest tiny noise for a micro second or so. Apparently the 400S must be doing a far better job of holding oil than the PL30001 Pure ONE I have been using. Is it possible the FL-400S closely resembles the factory Toyota filter in oil retention ability? Who makes the filter for Toyota?

So my question is what difference is there in construction of the ADBV of the FL-400s compared to the PL30001 that makes the Motorcraft superior in this application? I've run at least 5 consecutive PL30001's over the years all with the clank at start up.

Regardless it's good to know that this filter is dirt cheap at Wall Mart, under $3, and oversized slightly and a quality filter. All I have to do now is adjust the valves and check on the condition of the timing chain guide etc. Just for curiosity sake I'll try a Toyota filter to see if there is any difference on the next oil change.

Thanks Again for the feedback,

Crusader

 

[RavenTai]

quote:

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Originally posted by Crusader:
Who makes the filter for Toyota?

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The high quality 90915-20004 and 20002 were made by Denso in Japan, Toyota now gets their filters from Thailand and they are standard in construction and media compared to the Denso filters

I have 2 cases of the 20004's and a third on the way, you can still find them if you look

The 20002 had a Denso part # 115010-1950

the 20004 115010-5020

[ July 07, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: RavenTai ]

 

[PreciousBodilyFluids]

quote:

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I thought I'd try a Motorcraft FL-400s, just for kicks before I bought the factory Toyota filter. I let it sit overnight just to be sure and now the clank on start-up is gone. Just the faintest tiny noise for a micro second or so. Apparently the 400S must be doing a far better job of holding oil than the PL30001 Pure ONE I have been using. Is it possible the FL-400S closely resembles the factory Toyota filter in oil retention ability? Who makes the filter for Toyota?

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Me too! Clatter is completely gone at start-up. Tell me though; do you have a gauge or a light? My oil pressure shows next to nothing with this filter, but I think it may be due to a bad sending unit. What does yours say?

 

[Crusader]

I have only the idiot light. I haven't noticed a difference in the idiot light from the Pure ONE PL30001 and the FL-400s. The absence of chain clank is proof enough for me. I'm still puzzled that the silicon valve on the Pure ONE wasn't cutting the mustard all these years. Prior to the Pure ONE 30001 I was using the Napa Silver and Gold and before that Fram PH8A's I really don't remember what the clank factor was back then. Just glad the clank is gone and potential damage.

 

[PreciousBodilyFluids]

You know you can get an SR5 cluster for around $50 on Ebay...

Looks like the low pressure may be real.

 

[Crusader]

Looks like quite a pressure drop. I'll chose not to worry about it. I would not be surprised if the Toyota filter has higher flow. The truck might be sold so I'll pass on a pressure gauge. I suspect I'll be going with the factory spec filter if I keep it long enough.

 

[Crusader]

If you are running a Toyota 22R or 22 RE this applies to you.

Just wanted to update everybody on this topic. Over time I have found the FL-400s has not kept oil pressure up as well as it first indicated upon installation. I just switched over to the OEM Toyota Filter last week and will be running this filter indefinitely. It really does hold pressure far better than the FL-400s. Even after sitting for days. As of yet I haven't inspected the tensioner mechanism, plastic chain guides etc however that will be my priority when the weather get a bit warmer.

 

[JohnBrowning]

My 1986 4Runner ran a PH8A every oil change from 1986 until 1993. When I bought it off Dad I switched it to to a Motorcraft eqivalant to a PH8A. That engie is still going strong. It also holds more oil with the bigger filter. Anyone that tells you that that it is going to hurt the engine is not giveing sound advice and does not know what they are talking about.Now on that same note I do not think you gain much either buy running an oversized filter unless the engine is dirty or operated in an extremly dusty dirty environment. The airfilter is usualy of more signicance then the oil filter you run.

 

[Glockycharms]

Quote:

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Toyota 22r cam chain tensioner . . .Is factory filter really better.

Recently I received some input from a few Toyota Owner Groups about the running an oversized filter on my 22r. I'd like a Conesus from the oil form on this issue. If these quotations are in fact correct then the 22r owner who run non factory filters & especially oversize non factory filters are putting undue stress and wear as mentioned in the quotes. Is there an non oem filter that has the dual pressure valves??? If this is in fact true keeping the oil pump primed would be far more important than running a oversize filter or supposedly better filter Ssuch as a Pure ONE etc.

Thanks,
Crusader

quote:

---

The bigger filter is no upgrade. the factory oil filter has dual pressure valves to keep oil pressure up when the engine is off. Test for yourself - shut off the engine with anything other than an o.e. filter on it then wait 15 minutes and remove the oil filter, then try it with an o.e. filter and see the difference. The other filters will come off with almost no mess (oil has all drained back into the pan) the o.e. one will make a mess (because it is retaining the oil in the passages) The filter you want is a 08922-02011 or 90915-yzzd1 or 90915-yzzb1 - black filter, says Toyota on the side, comes in a red box - any of those 3 will work the same.


Try running an o.e. oil filter. The 22r is very sensitive to a good filter and any of the cheap ones (especially fram) can trash the timing chain. I suspect that you are hearing the timing chain being tensioned as the oil pressure comes up.

re: TIMING CHAIN there is no spec for replacing the chain except for wear. When you have the valve cover off to adjust the valves (every 15,000 miles)
look down the front chain housing for a broken upper guide and look down low for scoring on the inside of the timing cover (behind the waterpump) if the chain is bad enough it can wear thru the cover and drain your coolant into the crankcase!!

---

Also a prior post form the Oil Form :

quote:

---

Chris142
Member
Member # 1614

posted June 07, 2003 01:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is one drawback to using a larger filter. The timing chain tensioner in the 20r,22r and 22r-e is fed by oil pressure.

The filter on these engines is mounted with the threads lower than the endcap, not much but slightly. This will allow the filter to drain back if the drainback valve doesn't work properly.

When the truck is started the un-tensioned timing chain whips around untill the filter fills with oil and pressurizes the tensioner.

In the meantime the timing chain is flying around in the timing cover, this breaks the runners. Once the runners break the chain wont tighten and will eat through the aluminum cover or allow the chain to jump which bends valves.

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I happen to run the 22 RE engine and was wondering if i could use this oversize filter on mine as well?