Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
Transmission Fluid change interval
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I think 5 years 60k miles is reasonable interval. If you keep your vehicle forever, cost of ATF every 60k miles is around $100 for part and labor, much less than cost of rebuild.
Ford recs 100k for the first and 50k there after for my cars.
Im kind of a 30k guy myself though.
Im kind of a 30k guy myself though.
ATF after 100K is pretty gross.
If under warrenty I'd let the stealership do it around 50,000-60,000 miles.
If not, then do a drain and fill every 25,000-30,000 miles.
If under warrenty I'd let the stealership do it around 50,000-60,000 miles.
If not, then do a drain and fill every 25,000-30,000 miles.
Originally Posted By: outoforder
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
50% of the book is my rule of thumb so 51k
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
50% of the book is my rule of thumb so 51k
A lot of manufacturer's say 60k is severe duty. 100,000 +or- for light duty. I've seen quite(like a lot!) a few at 90k plus. G.M. and Chrysler mainly but some others thrown in. If lots of hiway usage 100k most didn't look all that bad. Certainly not burned up fliud. More like well used but not terrible by any means. The majority of them. 60k is plenty for normal usage. As needed under very severe duty. 15k to 30k if needed. Fluid's have improved greatly over the last decade or so. Were not to bad in the last 2 decades. Better machining also.
I do it at 30k its cheap insurance. $30 DIY change vs 2-5k for a tranny is how i look at it
Drain and fill yearly.
This keeps the ATF from getting gritty.
Once ATF starts to be a factor in the "grab" due to grit in the fluid you start to run into the problem of NOT being able to change it anymore.
Once it is gritty and the clutch packs get worn, if you try to change the fluid you'll get progressively worse slippage until the transmission dies.
If the fluid is always lubricating things, the clutch material stays where it should.
So do a YEARLY drain and fill, regardless of mileage. It is only approx. 3 to 4 quarts. And ONLY use OEM fluid. If you can't find it, you may have to pony up and get it from the dealer.
Never go for a full flush at a longer interval, go for yearly drain and fills instead.
This method happens to be the only method that can repeatably keep a trans living its full life. Doing it any other way seems to be hit and miss.
Nothing makes me feel better than having fresh red ATF in the trans at all times. 60k miles, it is pointless to push it that long. Get all that break in material out early I say, and keep anything gritty, metallic, or nasty out or completely controlled.
This keeps the ATF from getting gritty.
Once ATF starts to be a factor in the "grab" due to grit in the fluid you start to run into the problem of NOT being able to change it anymore.
Once it is gritty and the clutch packs get worn, if you try to change the fluid you'll get progressively worse slippage until the transmission dies.
If the fluid is always lubricating things, the clutch material stays where it should.
So do a YEARLY drain and fill, regardless of mileage. It is only approx. 3 to 4 quarts. And ONLY use OEM fluid. If you can't find it, you may have to pony up and get it from the dealer.
Never go for a full flush at a longer interval, go for yearly drain and fills instead.
This method happens to be the only method that can repeatably keep a trans living its full life. Doing it any other way seems to be hit and miss.
Nothing makes me feel better than having fresh red ATF in the trans at all times. 60k miles, it is pointless to push it that long. Get all that break in material out early I say, and keep anything gritty, metallic, or nasty out or completely controlled.
Quote:
Drain and fill yearly.
This keeps the ATF from getting gritty.
Once ATF starts to be a factor in the "grab" due to grit in the fluid you start to run into the problem of NOT being able to change it anymore.
Once it is gritty and the clutch packs get worn, if you try to change the fluid you'll get progressively worse slippage until the transmission dies.
I'm sorry, but I'm calling B S. Changing your fluid once a year, ever year is a complete waste of time and transmission fluid. Its never too late to change your fluid.
Drain and fill yearly.
This keeps the ATF from getting gritty.
Once ATF starts to be a factor in the "grab" due to grit in the fluid you start to run into the problem of NOT being able to change it anymore.
Once it is gritty and the clutch packs get worn, if you try to change the fluid you'll get progressively worse slippage until the transmission dies.
I'm sorry, but I'm calling B S. Changing your fluid once a year, ever year is a complete waste of time and transmission fluid. Its never too late to change your fluid.
Originally Posted By: outoforder
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
First I never would go to a shop called Mr. Transmission nor call someone to fix my house called Mr Fixit. But thats just me.
I think 50K to 60K is a reasonable number for a complete exchange of the ATF. Amsoil with their synthetic ATF says 50K severe service and 100K normal. But more people than you think fall into the severe category.
But when you say "service the transmission" what are we talking about? Simple drain and fill? Complete exchange via a flush? Remember a drain and fill gets between 1/3 to 1/2 of the total ATF. The Amsoil website will tell you how many QTs for each. If you are going to do a simple drain & fill, then maybe 30K is about right. And 50K to 60K for a complete exchange of the ATF.
Or better yet sample at 50K (include TAN) and see where you are.
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
First I never would go to a shop called Mr. Transmission nor call someone to fix my house called Mr Fixit. But thats just me.
I think 50K to 60K is a reasonable number for a complete exchange of the ATF. Amsoil with their synthetic ATF says 50K severe service and 100K normal. But more people than you think fall into the severe category.
But when you say "service the transmission" what are we talking about? Simple drain and fill? Complete exchange via a flush? Remember a drain and fill gets between 1/3 to 1/2 of the total ATF. The Amsoil website will tell you how many QTs for each. If you are going to do a simple drain & fill, then maybe 30K is about right. And 50K to 60K for a complete exchange of the ATF.
Or better yet sample at 50K (include TAN) and see where you are.
Originally Posted By: outoforder
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
A few things to consider: What vehicle and what type of use does it get? Blanket statements, and one size fits all for a service interval can get you in trouble, especially if the transmission is a weak unit, being used in severe service, or has known issues. A 30K service interval might not be such a bad idea, it all depends.
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
A few things to consider: What vehicle and what type of use does it get? Blanket statements, and one size fits all for a service interval can get you in trouble, especially if the transmission is a weak unit, being used in severe service, or has known issues. A 30K service interval might not be such a bad idea, it all depends.
There are two reasons to change the oil, degradation or a buildup of contamination. Either by itself is sufficient reason to change the oil. Changing the oil earlier than either of these conditions dictate offers no advantage to your transmission. The OE OCI recommendations are as close to a "universal" interval as you are going to find but fine-tuning it for increased longevity will have more to do with how your rig is operated.
Fluid degradation comes mostly from sustained heat. Keep the temp low (either by the operational cycle or a good cooling system) and oxidation is kept low. In general, a vehicle operated in town will generate lots of cycles (many shifts) and more heat due to the converter being unlocked more than the equivalent number of miles on the freeway, so the interval must be shorter. The trans oil in vehicle that carries a heavy load often (relative to it's capability) is also challenged more by heat. The bottom line is that if the fluid temp is kept below 180 the majority of the time (150 or lower is optimal), oxidation rate will be very low.
A trans temp gauge is a useful way of estimating trans oil life. If the temps are consistently low and the color remains good (oxidation is indicated by darkening) life can be very long. A UOA once in a while is good too.
Looking at it from the contamination aspect requires a little more time.
The first change is the most important. Eleftherakis & Kahlil (E&K), two engineers who literally wrote the book on auto trans contamination thru decades of research, found that the average automatic generates 75 percent of it's lifetime of contaminants in the first 5K miles. That's the junk built in from manufacturing and from break in. The amount built in is variable according to how good or bad the manufacturing process was. The Japanese and Europeans have been better at clean AT manufacturing over the past 25 years or so, but the Yanks have caught up lately... by necessity, I think. Break in is still an issue.
After break in, the rate of contamination levels off at a greatly reduced rate and the contamination level in the oil increases at a slow but steady rate from normal wear. Contamination rates are often related to the use of the vehicle. Easy use = low rate and vice versa.
E&K learned that when the contamination level rises past about 25 mg/l, that's when extraordinary wear rates begin and gradually gets worse as the contamination level rises. A 10 mg/l contamination level is an optimal state but this is hard to achieve/maintain without additional trans filtration or frequent oil changes (this is relative to operational stats). During break-in, that 25 mg/l is level achieved rapidly, hence that 5K change recommendation (or the installation of an additional filter).
For long term service, some addition trans filtration (beyond the pad in the pan), will hold the contamination in check so the fluid can live a natural life. If the contamination level is maintained below 25mg/l then in an easily used trans with a premium fluid, ATF life can indeed be virtually considered "lifetime" in many cases. Certainly 100K.
Determining all these conditions does require extra effort on the part of the owner. For the most part, IMO, if you have a good supplemental filtration system (an inline filter is fine), you could pretty much tell by fluid color but I have been pedantic enough to do a periodic UOA (every 30K or so), often enough to determine some working guidelines as to the life of the oil. Once I had a basic pattern, then monitoring was unnecessary until some part of the equation changes (operationally or the oil).
So my bottom line generic prescription has become:
1) With a new or rebuilt trans, either a first complete oil change and pan filter change within 5K, or the immediate installation of a auxiliary cooler line filter upon putting the trans into service.
2) After that first change (without an additional filter) I think 60K is very doable for most rigs, subject to consideration on the operating environment and fluid color and or UOA. A cooler line filter makes it a cinch, IMO, and putts 100K (or more) well within reach with monitoring.
3) You can't go willy-nilly into this. You have to pay some attention. Minimally, you do the early change and monitor oil color. The intermediate is to add a cooler line filter to the mix instead of the first oil change and monitor oil color. Maximally, will do the filter and determine fluid condition by UOA every 30-60K (later if operating conditions are more optimal and sooner if not). Once you establish a good working pattern, there is no serious need to do UOA unless the operating conditions change substantially.
4) Again, a trans temp gauge offers the ability to monitor fluid temp and give you an idea about oxidation rates. There are many places you can tap in, but the bulk pan temp tell you a lot. If you measure in the cooler line, it will always be roasting hot in comparison but that is a short term situation for the oil as it goes to the cooler and back into the pan. It's time at temperature that counts toward the oxidation rate.
Fluid degradation comes mostly from sustained heat. Keep the temp low (either by the operational cycle or a good cooling system) and oxidation is kept low. In general, a vehicle operated in town will generate lots of cycles (many shifts) and more heat due to the converter being unlocked more than the equivalent number of miles on the freeway, so the interval must be shorter. The trans oil in vehicle that carries a heavy load often (relative to it's capability) is also challenged more by heat. The bottom line is that if the fluid temp is kept below 180 the majority of the time (150 or lower is optimal), oxidation rate will be very low.
A trans temp gauge is a useful way of estimating trans oil life. If the temps are consistently low and the color remains good (oxidation is indicated by darkening) life can be very long. A UOA once in a while is good too.
Looking at it from the contamination aspect requires a little more time.
The first change is the most important. Eleftherakis & Kahlil (E&K), two engineers who literally wrote the book on auto trans contamination thru decades of research, found that the average automatic generates 75 percent of it's lifetime of contaminants in the first 5K miles. That's the junk built in from manufacturing and from break in. The amount built in is variable according to how good or bad the manufacturing process was. The Japanese and Europeans have been better at clean AT manufacturing over the past 25 years or so, but the Yanks have caught up lately... by necessity, I think. Break in is still an issue.
After break in, the rate of contamination levels off at a greatly reduced rate and the contamination level in the oil increases at a slow but steady rate from normal wear. Contamination rates are often related to the use of the vehicle. Easy use = low rate and vice versa.
E&K learned that when the contamination level rises past about 25 mg/l, that's when extraordinary wear rates begin and gradually gets worse as the contamination level rises. A 10 mg/l contamination level is an optimal state but this is hard to achieve/maintain without additional trans filtration or frequent oil changes (this is relative to operational stats). During break-in, that 25 mg/l is level achieved rapidly, hence that 5K change recommendation (or the installation of an additional filter).
For long term service, some addition trans filtration (beyond the pad in the pan), will hold the contamination in check so the fluid can live a natural life. If the contamination level is maintained below 25mg/l then in an easily used trans with a premium fluid, ATF life can indeed be virtually considered "lifetime" in many cases. Certainly 100K.
Determining all these conditions does require extra effort on the part of the owner. For the most part, IMO, if you have a good supplemental filtration system (an inline filter is fine), you could pretty much tell by fluid color but I have been pedantic enough to do a periodic UOA (every 30K or so), often enough to determine some working guidelines as to the life of the oil. Once I had a basic pattern, then monitoring was unnecessary until some part of the equation changes (operationally or the oil).
So my bottom line generic prescription has become:
1) With a new or rebuilt trans, either a first complete oil change and pan filter change within 5K, or the immediate installation of a auxiliary cooler line filter upon putting the trans into service.
2) After that first change (without an additional filter) I think 60K is very doable for most rigs, subject to consideration on the operating environment and fluid color and or UOA. A cooler line filter makes it a cinch, IMO, and putts 100K (or more) well within reach with monitoring.
3) You can't go willy-nilly into this. You have to pay some attention. Minimally, you do the early change and monitor oil color. The intermediate is to add a cooler line filter to the mix instead of the first oil change and monitor oil color. Maximally, will do the filter and determine fluid condition by UOA every 30-60K (later if operating conditions are more optimal and sooner if not). Once you establish a good working pattern, there is no serious need to do UOA unless the operating conditions change substantially.
4) Again, a trans temp gauge offers the ability to monitor fluid temp and give you an idea about oxidation rates. There are many places you can tap in, but the bulk pan temp tell you a lot. If you measure in the cooler line, it will always be roasting hot in comparison but that is a short term situation for the oil as it goes to the cooler and back into the pan. It's time at temperature that counts toward the oxidation rate.
I changed the OE fluid and filter in the 4T45E in my 2005 Ion at 30K and it was still cherry red. I probably could have gone longer. I plan on changing it again around 80K (50K interval).
Judging by the OE fluid and the fact that I added LG red I think I'll be fine.
I think the frequency of ATF change is vehicle dependent....if I had an A/T with known issues like the BAXA unit in my (sold) 2001 Accord, I'd do frequent changes. For most A/T's annual fluid changes are overkill,IMO.
Judging by the OE fluid and the fact that I added LG red I think I'll be fine.
I think the frequency of ATF change is vehicle dependent....if I had an A/T with known issues like the BAXA unit in my (sold) 2001 Accord, I'd do frequent changes. For most A/T's annual fluid changes are overkill,IMO.
I like the change it when it feels 'gritty' LOL
The vehicle is an 09 Liberty. It's the wife's daily commuter and she racked up alot of highway miles driving 70 miles round trip to work for two years. We have never towed anything with it. I've read all the pros and cons about doing a machine flush. If a simple drain and fill gets 1/3 to 1/2 of the fluid out, then it seems like doing this, driving the car for a week, then doing another drain and fill should give me almost all new fluid. Thoughts?
Originally Posted By: outoforder
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
What vehicle ??
How can anyone offer an opinion based on such little information.....
Tech at Mr. Transmission says to service the transmission every 30k, the dealership says 60k, and my book says 102k. Who to believe?
What vehicle ??
How can anyone offer an opinion based on such little information.....
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Falken
Drain and fill yearly.
"Yearly" is a meaningless recommendation. Do you drive 30K each year, or 12K, as I do?
As a basis, I recommend the following schedules:
- every 30K for regular fluid
- every 60K for synthetic fluid
This includes a complete fluid exchange, using the cooler line method.
There are mitigating factors to the basic schedule:
- the first fluid exchange is most important to get rid of the breakin debris, and should be done around 10K.
- a lot of highway driving can extend the schedule (fewer shift events)
- towing or hot driving should shorten the schedule
Drain and fill yearly.
"Yearly" is a meaningless recommendation. Do you drive 30K each year, or 12K, as I do?
As a basis, I recommend the following schedules:
- every 30K for regular fluid
- every 60K for synthetic fluid
This includes a complete fluid exchange, using the cooler line method.
There are mitigating factors to the basic schedule:
- the first fluid exchange is most important to get rid of the breakin debris, and should be done around 10K.
- a lot of highway driving can extend the schedule (fewer shift events)
- towing or hot driving should shorten the schedule
Originally Posted By: Falken
Drain and fill yearly.
This keeps the ATF from getting gritty.
Once ATF starts to be a factor in the "grab" due to grit in the fluid you start to run into the problem of NOT being able to change it anymore.
Once it is gritty and the clutch packs get worn, if you try to change the fluid you'll get progressively worse slippage until the transmission dies.
If the fluid is always lubricating things, the clutch material stays where it should.
So do a YEARLY drain and fill, regardless of mileage. It is only approx. 3 to 4 quarts. And ONLY use OEM fluid. If you can't find it, you may have to pony up and get it from the dealer.
Never go for a full flush at a longer interval, go for yearly drain and fills instead.
This method happens to be the only method that can repeatably keep a trans living its full life. Doing it any other way seems to be hit and miss.
Nothing makes me feel better than having fresh red ATF in the trans at all times. 60k miles, it is pointless to push it that long. Get all that break in material out early I say, and keep anything gritty, metallic, or nasty out or completely controlled.
This is what I do now. Yearly works out to about 15k to 20k miles. Tranny is hardly old, but at 100k miles and with towing, fluid is always fresh and transmission works perfectly.
Drain and fill yearly.
This keeps the ATF from getting gritty.
Once ATF starts to be a factor in the "grab" due to grit in the fluid you start to run into the problem of NOT being able to change it anymore.
Once it is gritty and the clutch packs get worn, if you try to change the fluid you'll get progressively worse slippage until the transmission dies.
If the fluid is always lubricating things, the clutch material stays where it should.
So do a YEARLY drain and fill, regardless of mileage. It is only approx. 3 to 4 quarts. And ONLY use OEM fluid. If you can't find it, you may have to pony up and get it from the dealer.
Never go for a full flush at a longer interval, go for yearly drain and fills instead.
This method happens to be the only method that can repeatably keep a trans living its full life. Doing it any other way seems to be hit and miss.
Nothing makes me feel better than having fresh red ATF in the trans at all times. 60k miles, it is pointless to push it that long. Get all that break in material out early I say, and keep anything gritty, metallic, or nasty out or completely controlled.
This is what I do now. Yearly works out to about 15k to 20k miles. Tranny is hardly old, but at 100k miles and with towing, fluid is always fresh and transmission works perfectly.
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: WhyMe
I do it at 30k its cheap insurance. $30 DIY change vs 2-5k for a tranny is how i look at it
Me too when I own automatics.
I do it at 30k its cheap insurance. $30 DIY change vs 2-5k for a tranny is how i look at it
Me too when I own automatics.
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