My personal website was just "trolled" by Fram

[Audioquest]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Nickname/display name 'motorking', he scours the internets looking for negative comments regarding Fram and the orange can. He then preaches 'the word' according to Fram/Honeywell, and seeks to right any perceived injustices. IIRC, he may have posted similar here under that display name or another.

He does seem to have a tendency to embellish the facts a tad though. Most recently one of his posts was posted here stating the XG had the highest holding capacity of any filter. Actually, according to their respective websites the BoschDP is 29g vs 26g for the XG. The XG however is a well made filter.

In this post he claims " The least expensive Fram filter is 94% efficient using ISO test standard 4548-12. This means it removes 94% of dirt particles in the 10-20 micron size the first time your oil passes through the filter."

The Fram website says orange can efficiency @ 95% arrived at by: "Honeywell testing of filter efficiency and capacity of models equivalent to PH8A, 3387A and 6607 under ISO 4548-12 for particles > 20 microns. So same ISO standard but not 10-20um claimed in the post. Also he says a single pass which is higher than the multipass spec many filters use. If it's, 10-20um it's not a published spec.

Then he says of the XG "It is the ONLY filter that has a wriiten guarantee for 10k oil chages when used with synthetic oil." However, the Fram site says "Follow recommended change intervals as noted in your vehicle's owner's manual. 10,000-mile change interval under normal driving conditions using fully synthetic motor oil." So it's guaranteed only if the car manufacturer says 10k is the recommended OCI, using syn oil.

Also said, "The Super Tech filter is around 80% efficient in comparison." Afaik, Champ/ST claims a 94% efficiency rating.

And posts always seems to mention Honeywell now making Honda and Subaru OEM's, as the decisive factor.

Also saw on a recent post on another message board where he doesn't hold Bitog in the highest regard. Surprise. Nor the minmopar oil filter site.

All that aside, especially as related to the orange can, there are better constructed more efficient filters that can be obtained for less money.


That's exactly the guy! He mentioned in a reply that he is PAID to look around the internet for Fram threads. In our thread, we were establishing the difference (and superior) contstruction of the Honda OEM Filtech-manufactured "A01" filter over the comparable Fram-manufactured "A02".

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: Audioquest

"The least expensive Fram filter is 94% efficient using ISO test standard 4548-12. This means it removes 94% of dirt particles in the 10-20 micron size the first time your oil passes through the filter."


Doesn't this blurb from the fram website make this statement untrue?
Quote:
Honeywell testing of filter efficiency and capacity of models equivalent to PH8A, 3387A and 6607 under ISO 4548-12 for particles > 20 microns. Engine protection is the FRAM measure of a filter’s ability to not just trap dirt but hold it for the life of the filter.
Honeywell testing of filter efficiency (using FRAM XG3387A and XG8A average) and dirt holding capacity (using XG8A average only) and their leading economy filter equivalents under ISO 4548-12 for particles > 20 microns.


I don't think so either. Like sayjac said, the one rating is for 10-20 microns, and the other is for greater than 20 microns size.

 

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
The "orange can of death" comments are moronic thinking. While I think there are better filters for the money there is nothing wrong with running orange Fram filters-I've run orange Frames for over over 40 years without incident. This stupid labeling of garage this and that is dumb and dumber and in some cases could be a case for a liable suit.



One thing to make note of is that Fram filters were the probably the primary filter that caused Dodge to generate its "approved filter list" for the 24-valve Cummins...the components would degrade and block oil passages, resulting in a toasted engine. I remember when this was happening, and it was almost always a Fram that was the culprit when reported. As far as I know, Fram is still not approved for use on the Cummins in a Dodge truck, although the Fram filter that originally caused the issues has a superseded number now.

There are instances of issues with their filters, but as we see on this forum; there are instances of issues with almost every filter made in some fashion or another. All it takes is a single event to alter peoples perception of a given product...even if the issue is an isolated case, the entire line gets tarnished.

I would not hesitate to run one for normal OCI on a typical car.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Quote:
The fiber end caps have been in production for over 15 years with a zero failure rate. Honda uses them, Subuaru uses them, General Motors and Bentley use them.


He's got a point about the major car makers using the fiber material end capped filters. I'd have to believe that the engineers in those car brands have to take a close look at the filters they are having make and selling as OEM parts.

But, given all that ... I still prefer oil filters with metal end caps and metal center tube.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
I don't think so either. Like sayjac said, the one rating is for 10-20 microns, and the other is for greater than 20 microns size.

They are both ISO 4548-12. The difference is that the Fram poster's comment talks about first-pass performance, whereas the passage cited by TaterandNoodles seems to deal with performance "for the life of the filter." Not sure if either of those violates a violation of the test specification; perhaps someone better informed can comment.

 

[Bluestream]

Why is it that oil filters excite people so much?

 

[kcfx4]

i dont call that trolling, but i call it a rebuttal, and with such a small site, i would personally be honored to have the co. rebuttal. Since orange cans are sold in WM, no doubt there's alot of them sold........

 

[edhackett]

Quote:
He's got a point about the major car makers using the fiber material end capped filters. I'd have to believe that the engineers in those car brands have to take a close look at the filters they are having make and selling as OEM parts.


Naw, the bean counters put the oil filter contract out to bid, "FRAM" won. Simple as that.

Ed

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: Audioquest
Originally Posted By: mpvue
the only people that should bash fram are the ones with FIRSTHAND BAD EXPERIENCE with them.
otherwise, it's all conjecture and a waste of time.
I've read about all kinds of people slamming them, but have never had a problem w/ the orange can. I actually resent the fact that it affected my buying decision last time I had to buy a filter, although I have no proof nor any reason to suspect the filter is a problem.
starting a honda CRX cult and and attempting to indoctrinate your disciples/minions with your personal opinion is irresponsible.


Easy buddy. No one is starting a "cult". I hardly think expressing one's opinion on a product and it's value in respect to competitor's products is irresponsible. Isn't that what Consumer Reports does everyday? Have you read half of the posts in the oil filter forum on this site? Harldy a rah-rah Fram affair. I think we've got another Fram employee here...

I was having fun at your expense, sorry you don't have a sense of humor. to quote:
I host a little Honda CRX forum and I thought it was my duty to inform my members about the orange-can-of-death.
I just found that funny.
as was said by many, fram is HUGE, and likely used on a lot of vehicles. if the failure rate was so high as to warrant being labeled 'can of death', I'm sure there would be class action lawsuits; are there?
and what exactly is your personal experience to label it a 'can of death'?
methinks you are just repeating something you've heard on teh interwebz.
btw, I DID used to work for allied-signal about 10 yrs ago, which got bought by honeywell, does that count?

 

[Audioquest]

Originally Posted By: mpvue
Originally Posted By: Audioquest
Originally Posted By: mpvue
the only people that should bash fram are the ones with FIRSTHAND BAD EXPERIENCE with them.
otherwise, it's all conjecture and a waste of time.
I've read about all kinds of people slamming them, but have never had a problem w/ the orange can. I actually resent the fact that it affected my buying decision last time I had to buy a filter, although I have no proof nor any reason to suspect the filter is a problem.
starting a honda CRX cult and and attempting to indoctrinate your disciples/minions with your personal opinion is irresponsible.


Easy buddy. No one is starting a "cult". I hardly think expressing one's opinion on a product and it's value in respect to competitor's products is irresponsible. Isn't that what Consumer Reports does everyday? Have you read half of the posts in the oil filter forum on this site? Harldy a rah-rah Fram affair. I think we've got another Fram employee here...

I was having fun at your expense, sorry you don't have a sense of humor. to quote:
I host a little Honda CRX forum and I thought it was my duty to inform my members about the orange-can-of-death.
I just found that funny.
as was said by many, fram is HUGE, and likely used on a lot of vehicles. if the failure rate was so high as to warrant being labeled 'can of death', I'm sure there would be class action lawsuits; are there?
and what exactly is your personal experience to label it a 'can of death'?
methinks you are just repeating something you've heard on teh interwebz.
btw, I DID used to work for allied-signal about 10 yrs ago, which got bought by honeywell, does that count?

I worked for Honeywell from 1990-1992, so I guess that may associate me as well. Either way, the ol' sense of humor is working just fine thanks. A lot gets lost in the written word. As for my duty to inform, that was a little tongue-in-cheek as well.

As for a poor Fram experience, I was screwing a PH6811 onto my CRX way back in the day. I thought it tightened down normally, so I started up my engine. Next thing is see is a pool of oil under my car. The filter was sitting 1/4" away from the filter mount. It was not cross-threaded as it backed off normally and the threads looked fine. There was actually somthing blocking inside the filter that was preventing it from being fastened all the way down. I took it back to the store for another one, and it was fine.

 

[dsmdriver2588]

Originally Posted By: Audioquest
...The least expensive Fram filter is 94% efficient using ISO test standard 4548-12. This means it removes 94% of dirt particles in the 10-20 micron size the first time your oil passes through the filter. The Super Tech filter is around 80% efficient in comparison...


I thought the ST filter was an exact clone of the STP filter which is rated at 96% at 20 microns and has a 20% more capacity than the OCOD.

 

[KrisZ]

Quote:
Naw, the bean counters put the oil filter contract out to bid, "FRAM" won. Simple as that.
Ed



Could it be that maybe a similar thing happened with Mobil 1 and Corvette?

 

[edhackett]

Mobil payed GM for the marketing rights. I hear the oil cap no longer says Mobil 1. GM didn't renew that part of the agreement this year.

Ed

 

[Kaie]

Every cut open used Fram i've seen looks like junk.

And to be fair. Your 40 years of use means nothing when Honeywell hasn't owned/cheapened Fram for that long.

Like someone said about value. There are filters with a bunch more media and not as cheaply made as Fram for like 1 dollar more.

I have seen OEM filters with more media than the Fram version.

I have also seen an automobile manufacture release a larger filters w/ more media for some of their models in the middle of their production run to combat sludge and dirty engine build up. But the Fram filter for the vehicle never changed.

But to be fair... im an OEM filter guy.....

 

[kcfx4]

fram is known as a less expensive filter, no doubt youve found better OEM filters....................

 

[Kaie]

You don't feel that an aftermarket filter maker has the responsibility to at least MATCH what came from the factory?

 

[kcfx4]

Originally Posted By: Kaie
You don't feel that an aftermarket filter maker has the responsibility to at least MATCH what came from the factory?

Not "match" but "meet" their recomendations.....we all know motorcraft makes an excellent filter, and denso etc.....not to mention it seems some delco filters are less quality, not to mention super tech, stp, possibly fram, etc......yet there are "higher" quality filters such as M1, Bosch D+, K&N, etc. some champ filters dont even mention new car warranty, yet most do. I think the key word is "reccomendation" not exact spec

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Kaie
You don't feel that an aftermarket filter maker has the responsibility to at least MATCH what came from the factory?

Not at all. Their responsibility is to make something that fits, doesn't immediately destroy any engine it touches, and sells well. If it's as good as (or better than) OEM, so much the better, but that is not a requirement in any sense -- especially for something like a filter, which in all likelihood will not show its shortcomings immediately and obviously.

 

[Kaie]

haha

i guess i have different values as a person.

I dont do anything to make a buck. I like to do things the right way especially when being paid to do it.

 

[typ901]

My take on the Fram choice is this. I ordered a supply of MANN HU7185x filters which are extended drain (Fleece) filters. (Rockauto.com) They are cheaper than I could buy the Fram cartridge, which is not extended drain. That is the extent of my Fram bash for my M-B. Most cost effective solution is MANN.