Pickens pulls the plug.

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He was after the government to mandate "green" energy and government subsidies. This is the only way these things make money.

Alter the economic landscape, and then pick the winners with tax dollars.
 
The following is a good read about the effects of deregulation and lawmakers mandated wheeling on what is essentially the worlds largest machine that is not designed for wheeling:
http://physicist.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html

The bits I like,
Under the new rules:
Quote:
Figure 2. Electric power does not travel just by the shortest route from source to sink, but also by parallel flow paths through other parts of the system (a). Where the network jogs around large geographical obstacles, such as the Rocky Mountains in the West or the Great Lakes in the East, loop flows around the obstacle are set up that can drive as much as 1 GW of power in a circle, taking up transmission line capacity without delivering power to consumers (b).


Quote:
The new regulations envisioned trading electricity like a commodity. Generating companies would sell their power for the best price they could get, and utilities would buy at the lowest price possible. For this concept to work, it was imperative to compel utilities that owned transmission lines to carry power from other companies’ generators in the same way as they carried their own, even if the power went to a third party. FERC’s Order 888 mandated the wheeling of electric power across utility lines in 1996. But that order remained in litigation until March 4, 2000, when the U.S. Supreme Court validated it and it went into force.

In the four years between the issuance of Order 888 and its full implementation, engineers began to warn that the new rules ignored the physics of the grid. The new policies “ do not recognize the single-machine characteristics of the electric-power network,” Casazza wrote in 1998. “The new rule balkanized control over the single machine,” he explains. “It is like having every player in an orchestra use their own tunes.”

In the view of Casazza and many other experts, the key error in the new rules was to view electricity as a commodity rather than as an essential service. Commodities can be shipped from point A through line B to point C, but power shifts affect the entire singlemachine system. As a result, increased longdistance trading of electric power would create dangerous levels of congestion on transmission lines where controllers did not expect them and could not deal with them.

The problems would be compounded, engineers warned, as independent power producers added new generating units at essentially random locations determined by low labor costs, lax local regulations, or tax incentives. If generators were added far from the main consuming areas, the total quantity of power flows would rapidly increase, overloading transmission lines. “ The system was never designed to handle long-distance wheeling,” notes Loren Toole, a transmission-system analyst at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

At the same time, data needed to predict and react to system stress—such as basic information on the quantity of energy flows—began disappearing, treated by utilities as competitive information and kept secret. “Starting in 1998, the utilities stopped reporting on blackout statistics as well,” says Ben Carreras of Oak Ridge National Laboratory, so system reliability could no longer be accurately assessed.

Finally, the separation into generation and transmission companies resulted in an inadequate amount of reactive power, which is current 90 deg out of phase with the voltage. Reactive power is needed to maintain voltage, and longer-distance transmission increases the need for it. However, only generating companies can produce reactive power, and with the new rules, they do not benefit from it. In fact, reactive-power production reduces the amount of deliverable power produced. So transmission companies, under the new rules, cannot require generating companies to produce enough reactive power to stabilize voltages and increase system stability.
 
hopefully he won't return to CNBC . Anytime he predicted a price for oil ( ex. $120 ) the STREET people would follow the black brick road .
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I'm not a fan of the cap and trade either. It gives the thieves on Wall St another commodity to run up. Not a good idea in general IMO.


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Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I'm not a fan of the cap and trade either.


Inappropriately named. Tax and trade.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: tig1
This topic has been covered before, but I don't see how wind generators can ever be an effective way to replace other forms of power to the masses in the US. Maybe on a local level if people will put up with the landscape polution they make, but who wants to put up with the apperance of these things around the country side?


I found them quite nice, and yes. I've worked next to these giant windmill near altamount pass for 3 years.


Quite nice to look at? I'm sorry but cell towers and giant windmills are a blight on the land. Ted Kennedy doesn't want to see them and neither do I where I live.
 
Originally Posted By: jmac
The following is a good read about the effects of deregulation and lawmakers mandated wheeling on what is essentially the worlds largest machine that is not designed for wheeling:
http://physicist.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html

Quote:
The power then flows from the “source” (A) to the “sink” (B) along all the paths that can connect them. This means that changes in generation and transmission at any point in the system will change loads on generators and transmission lines at every other point—often in ways not anticipated or easily controlled

Just imagine what tens of thousands of windmills turning at different rates every minute, transmitting over long lines, would do to grid stability.
 
Originally Posted By: benjamming
Ted Kennedy is your measuring stick? Wow. Pretty short stick eh?


I rarely agree with TK but in this case I do.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

Just imagine what tens of thousands of windmills turning at different rates every minute, transmitting over long lines, would do to grid stability.


Share your thoughts on the topic. Perhaps you can consult Shannow.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

Just imagine what tens of thousands of windmills turning at different rates every minute, transmitting over long lines, would do to grid stability.


You do know that the windmills are throttled and braked to generate what you want it to, right?
 
Quote:
The feed-in capacity can change frequently
within a few hours. This is shown in FIGURE 6,
which reproduces the course of wind power feedin
during the Christmas week from 20 to 26
December 2004.
Whilst wind power feed-in at 9.15am on
Christmas Eve reached its maximum for the year
at 6,024MW, it fell to below 2,000MW within only
10 hours, a difference of over 4,000MW. This corresponds
to the capacity of 8 x 500MW coal fired
power station blocks. On Boxing Day, wind power
feed-in in the E.ON grid fell to below 40MW.
Handling such significant differences in feed-in
levels poses a major challenge to grid operators.


Quote:
However, the increased use of wind
power in Germany has resulted in uncontrollable
fluctuations occurring on the generation side due
to the random character of wind power feed-in.
This significantly increases the demands placed
on the control balancing process.


http://www.windaction.org/?module=uploads&func=download&fileId=232
From a German energy company that has to deal with these things.
 
So? Are you saying that these challenges are beyond the capability of humans to master?

Perhaps we can go back to human oarsman like "The Deacon" had in Water World. You can cycle them on and off at will.

Darn
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You have to feed them daHam-it!!
 
jmac,
the "single machine" is a great quote.

That's what people fail to realise, is that in an AC system, every synchronous generator is locked to each other. There was an incident in my state last week where a 4 unit station tripped, and the instability of the system took out another machine in the state, two in another state, and one in yet another. Frequency dropped to 49Hz, and stayed there for 10 mins.

The increasing useage on parallel paths is circulating power. Mechanical analogy is driving in 4WD on tarmac with a locked centre diff. The power circulating around the drivetrain and burning it up is many, many times the engine input power.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Just imagine what tens of thousands of windmills turning at different rates every minute, transmitting over long lines, would do to grid stability.


Just imagine what millions of people getting up in the morning, and turning on their lights, heaters, and toasters all at approximately the same time does to grid stability...then repeat it every evening when they get home from work.

It's huge.

And the system deals with it just fine.
 
Quote:
And the system deals with it just fine.

And I imagine that this happens on a daily routine such that the providers know, to within a small margin, how much energy will be needed at a given time during the day...on any given day.

This cannot be said of the wind.
 
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