Might Redline have too much Potassium??

[fuel tanker man]

I've been perusing the VOA's and UOA's of Redline oils...

I had initially thought that the typically high wear metals could be explained by actual metal to metal wear (instead of a "washing out" of old metal laiden sludge), in the cases where the Zinc and Phosphorous were being depleted. But some of the UOA's show high Lead and the add packs seem pretty much intact. So that hypothesis doesn't seem to always hold true.

But I noticed something a little odd about the Redline chemistry. They seem to use around 25 ppm of Potassium in all of the blends I looked at (VOA's). But in the UOA's--even on pretty short drains--the Potassium is all but gone. Some members even commented: "Potassium a little high there..." when the ppm was 2 or 3. But again, the Potassium level began high, at ~25 ppm in the VOA's.

Please enlighten me as to the role of Potassium in the mix--no other oils I've looked at here seem to have more than 2 ppm of that element. Most have ZERO.

Could an OD of Potassium be at least partially responsible for Redline's generally less than stellar UOA's?

I'm not a chemist. But I think we have some here...

There does seem to be a warning by Shell oil company regarding Potassium levels in gasoline; it's said that too much can cause valves to "stick." This blurb is referenced in this Bardahl webpage. http://www.bardahl.com/automotive/Products/insted_o.htm

What is it about Potassium that can cause valves to stick? And if it's not good for your combustion chamber, why would it be good in the crankcase?

Just wondering.

Dan

 

[TallPaul]

Don't know about the postassium, but seems one could argue a bit too much moly. Buy hey, that is great. Use is as an additive. Probably one qt Redline mixed with any cheap dino (try the free Quaker State jugs at AZ--free after Shell gas card rebate). That keeps the price down.

 

[MolaKule]

We have to remember that sodium and potassium are used in anti-corrosion, rust inhibiting, and in metal deactivators as well.

 

[MGBV8]

Potassium type concoctions were tried as a lead alternative. This kind of chemistry causes fairly heavy deposits to build up on the backs of the exhaust valves - decreasing efficiency and seizing valves in guides in some instances.

One option is to use sodium based chemistry (Red Line Lead Substitute), which forms sodium oxides upon combustion. This gives the same physical protection from micro welding as lead oxides.

My conclusion would be that Redline would be aware of any Potassium issues as they market a sodium based lead alternative.

 

[MGBV8]

Motul is another high ester oil and they do not recommend it for normal road use

http://www.motul.com/uk/produits/index.html

Perhaps these more race specific oils balance the AW package at a higher heat range rather than normal road use oils.

A very good UOA was achieved with Silkolene Pro a 20% ester oil but also with LPG.

 

[fuel tanker man]

MGB,

You may be right about that--the Redline being good for racing apps, but not in the grocery getter.

All I can say is there's no way I'd put that oil in my own car--even if someone gave the oil to me!

There's got to be more than a solvent effect (to explain the wear metals, normally Lead) going on here, I would think. I know it's been advised to go three OCIs with Redline before forming any opinions, but I'm not seeing any convincing UOA's where the third oil change with Redline has seemed to be a charm.

And not only that, but the TBN seems to tank early on this oil as well. Again, check the UOA's.

Could it be that two of the most revered substances--moly and esters--are not at all what they have been trumped up to be?

Maybe.

But sooner or later, someone must finally point out that this "emperor" has no clothes.

Dan

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Every blender must strike a balance between friction wear and corrosive wear. Some AW/FM adds are corrosive, such as the sulpher and phosphorus in ZDDP, which causes soft metal corrosion. That's why, for example, GL-5 lubes don't belong where GL-4 lubes should go.

In my opinion, RedLine uses a highly active (corrosive) additive pack that protects well in racing conditions, but is corrosive to soft metals. It's a good balance for a racing engine, but not a good balance for a daily driver.

---

I agree with your thinking on some level. I think RL has such an agressive chemistry it might react with certain metals differently. This could be the case with Mobil 1 as well with Fe. But their are also anti-corrosion additives I'm sure that are used. It's a balance as you said.

[ March 14, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[boxcartommie22]

redline has their racing oils for racing and their street oils....

 

[Jay]

Every blender must strike a balance between friction wear and corrosive wear. Some AW/FM adds are corrosive, such as the sulpher and phosphorus in ZDDP, which causes soft metal corrosion. That's why, for example, GL-5 lubes don't belong where GL-4 lubes should go.

In my opinion, RedLine uses a highly active (corrosive) additive pack that protects well in racing conditions, but is corrosive to soft metals. It's a good balance for a racing engine, but not a good balance for a daily driver.

 

[MGBV8]

The only mentioned difference between the two is that the race oils contain very few detergents and are not recommended for street use.

Motul 300V should have a "full" add pack but uses 20% diester + ester PAO blend.

 

[MolaKule]

Update on Potassium levels in PCMO's:


One of the newer additives that has come on the scene is the Borates,

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000177#000000

which are added to the oil in various compounds, that is, molecular mixtures of borates with other elements.

One of those compounds is Potassium Borate, in which the alkili metal Potassium is linked by polymerization, to the non-metallic Boron atom.

I believe this is where the elevated Potassium levels are originating. The Potassium helps to boost the tbn (along with the overbased calcium detergent) and of course, Boron is a good AW/FM element as well.

(I am pasting this into the Interesting articles section as well.)

 

[fuel tanker man]

Thanks for the info, Molakule...

While we're on the subject, are you of the mind that the Redline UOA's will improve if you run it three times through the average engine?

Or do you think that there is something about the Redline chemistry which doesn't lend itself well to the PCMO application?

It seems that in addition to elevated wear metals being the rule rather than the exception for Redline oils, the TBN's tend to deplete faster than some dinos--if we can believe the labs--(which is becoming a whole 'nother subject these days)

...

Thanks again,

Dan

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

are you of the mind that the Redline UOA's will improve if you run it three times through the average engine?

---

That has been my experience.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Fuel Tanaker Man, did you look at all the UOA that showed good results with Redline that i posted? I did not do that to waste my time I was trying to show that your generalization about Redline were not accurate. Their are many good UOA of Redline! Their are also a lot of bad UOA! In many cases the people had issues that would have gone undiscovered had they not done a UOA for the first time while running Redline. In properly running mechanicaly sound engines Redline only cause a modest spike in wear numbers and when people run it three tomes in a row it trends down to anice level either equaly or lower then the previous UOA!

 

[buster]

With RL, as stated by some of the experts on here, has a strong polar affinity for metal and is essentially displacing metals at the molecular layer due to it's POE basestock. It's an interesting idea and I do believe if their was a flaw with RL's chemistry, it would be more of an issue, but it's not. RL is a racing oil first IMO.

 

[TallPaul]

Based on various Redline discussions over the months, I believe the case is that the esters in Redline will liberate a lot of deposited material, including wear metals from previous OCIs that are held up in the deposits, and this makes it look bad the first couple UOAs.

I think Redline will function as an engine cleaner to a degree and we probably would not UOA an Auto Rx run expecting pristine numbers. So yeah, Redline seems to be great stuff, just probably should wait untill the third OCI for the first UOA.

 

[Jay]

I don't think the "cleaning" theory fits, because if cleaning was liberating wear metals, all wear metals would be elevated--not just the soft ones. Iron is usually very low while the soft, easily-corroded metals spike.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Jay,

That's what it looks like to me--but I'm still new at all of this--and certainly willing to change my opinion if the facts warrant doing such.

When I hear hoof-beats, I'll continue to think horses until someone shows me the zebras.

Dan