A short list to understanding ester additives
- Thread starter Dale_Knight
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I don't know who these people are, but I wrote that ester article while working at Hatco. They lifted it without permission for their competing website.
Now there's real integrity!
TomNJ
Now there's real integrity!
TomNJ
Tom I would like to have the talent to do a write up like that.
Thanks Steve. Just too many years of accumulated stuff leaking out onto a keyboard.
MolaKule
Staff member
Tom, please consider writing a White paper in this section updating the information on ester technology.
Hi MolaKule,
Well the above paper that Diolube stole was intended to be an overview of how the ester types and structures translate into physical, chemical, and performance characteristics for lubricants. It's still reasonably current, at least with respect to PCMO applications. Ester use remains low in car engine oils due to their high price and the relatively mild conditions in the engines, so they are mainly used as additives. That market trends toward the lowest cost base oils needed to satisfy specifications and claims, so Group IIIs are the current poster child.
The technology exists to make a real "super" oil based entirely on certain advanced polyol esters, but the PCMO market demand would not support the cost. Although complex, esters are very flexible and the structures can be optimized and balanced to meet a wish list of performance targets. Perhaps the heavy duty fleet market or military applications would realize the benefits if someone made the R&D investment.
I am enjoying retirement, but am happy to answer any specific questions.
Tom NJ
Well the above paper that Diolube stole was intended to be an overview of how the ester types and structures translate into physical, chemical, and performance characteristics for lubricants. It's still reasonably current, at least with respect to PCMO applications. Ester use remains low in car engine oils due to their high price and the relatively mild conditions in the engines, so they are mainly used as additives. That market trends toward the lowest cost base oils needed to satisfy specifications and claims, so Group IIIs are the current poster child.
The technology exists to make a real "super" oil based entirely on certain advanced polyol esters, but the PCMO market demand would not support the cost. Although complex, esters are very flexible and the structures can be optimized and balanced to meet a wish list of performance targets. Perhaps the heavy duty fleet market or military applications would realize the benefits if someone made the R&D investment.
I am enjoying retirement, but am happy to answer any specific questions.
Tom NJ
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Quote:
The technology exists to make a real "super" oil based entirely on certain advanced polyol esters, but the PCMO market demand would not support the cost.
Tom, what would you estimate the cost and life to be on an oil that you are describing here?
The technology exists to make a real "super" oil based entirely on certain advanced polyol esters, but the PCMO market demand would not support the cost.
Tom, what would you estimate the cost and life to be on an oil that you are describing here?
Hi Tempest,
Cost depends on volume, which is part of the problem, but I would expect the base ester to cost perhaps 3-4 times that of a Grp III. The additive system would likely also benefit from a revamping to match the ester.
Material cost is only part of the equation as a full testing program would be needed to prove out a new chemistry approach, which would have to be amortized over a relatively small specialty volume. This could be partially offset by alternate additional applications and government funding. Hard to say what the finished oil would sell for as this is a marketing decision based on the business plan, but $15-20/quart wouldn't surprise me.
OCI is dependent on many factors and the base oil contribution in an internal combustion engine is minor. If blow-by could be reduced in design, the base oil becomes a much greater factor.
If you are looking to do a cost justification calculation, passenger car applications won't cut it. The main benefits of such an advance oil compared to Grp IIIs, PAO, and conventional esters would be higher temperature capability and reduced deposits, while retaining the typical ester benefits of low volatility, high lubricity, and some biodegradability. Car engines are not severe enough to benefit from these properties. You need an application that provides a real thermal and oxidative challenge, or requires long life without blow-by.
Tom NJ
Cost depends on volume, which is part of the problem, but I would expect the base ester to cost perhaps 3-4 times that of a Grp III. The additive system would likely also benefit from a revamping to match the ester.
Material cost is only part of the equation as a full testing program would be needed to prove out a new chemistry approach, which would have to be amortized over a relatively small specialty volume. This could be partially offset by alternate additional applications and government funding. Hard to say what the finished oil would sell for as this is a marketing decision based on the business plan, but $15-20/quart wouldn't surprise me.
OCI is dependent on many factors and the base oil contribution in an internal combustion engine is minor. If blow-by could be reduced in design, the base oil becomes a much greater factor.
If you are looking to do a cost justification calculation, passenger car applications won't cut it. The main benefits of such an advance oil compared to Grp IIIs, PAO, and conventional esters would be higher temperature capability and reduced deposits, while retaining the typical ester benefits of low volatility, high lubricity, and some biodegradability. Car engines are not severe enough to benefit from these properties. You need an application that provides a real thermal and oxidative challenge, or requires long life without blow-by.
Tom NJ
Thanks Tom.
moe in wichita ks
a VERY good wrighting tom. but a bit to deep for my old brain.
a VERY good wrighting tom. but a bit to deep for my old brain.
Tom NJ,
Thanks for the data. One question:
Redline, of course, declares use of Polyol Ester as its base oil, - do you have any insights as to whether it is truly the predominate base oil or are they just blending a percentage of POE to another base oil?
Some have suggested that the POE content is actually only in the 20-30 percent range, rather than the 70+ percent you might expect if it was the sole "base oil".
Thanks for the data. One question:
Redline, of course, declares use of Polyol Ester as its base oil, - do you have any insights as to whether it is truly the predominate base oil or are they just blending a percentage of POE to another base oil?
Some have suggested that the POE content is actually only in the 20-30 percent range, rather than the 70+ percent you might expect if it was the sole "base oil".
MolaKule
Staff member
Hi Tom,
Yes, I am very familiar with Chemtura/Hatco products as at one time we used some of the 2XXX and 5XXX series in various applications, as too did a friend of mine (chemist/tribologist contract consultant) who developed specialty lubricants primarily for Military applications.
And I too have stated in the past that specially designed majority-ester-based and compounded ester lubricants could be produced for PCMO's, but at the time the market could not bear the price.
For the present, I think that PE, DIPE, TMP, and compounded esters will be relegated as base oil enhancers for Group III-IV oils.
Did you ever do any research on diphenylamine-based esters?
Yes, I am very familiar with Chemtura/Hatco products as at one time we used some of the 2XXX and 5XXX series in various applications, as too did a friend of mine (chemist/tribologist contract consultant) who developed specialty lubricants primarily for Military applications.
And I too have stated in the past that specially designed majority-ester-based and compounded ester lubricants could be produced for PCMO's, but at the time the market could not bear the price.
For the present, I think that PE, DIPE, TMP, and compounded esters will be relegated as base oil enhancers for Group III-IV oils.
Did you ever do any research on diphenylamine-based esters?
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Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8
Tom NJ, Redline, of course, declares use of Polyol Ester as its base oil, - do you have any insights as to whether it is truly the predominate base oil or are they just blending a percentage of POE to another base oil?
I honestly don't know the composition of the Redline products.
Tom NJ
Tom NJ, Redline, of course, declares use of Polyol Ester as its base oil, - do you have any insights as to whether it is truly the predominate base oil or are they just blending a percentage of POE to another base oil?
I honestly don't know the composition of the Redline products.
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Hi Tom, For the present, I think that PE, DIPE, TMP, and compounded esters will be relegated as base oil enhancers for Group III-IV oils.
Hi MolaKule,
I agree fully. TMPs are the most popular due to their good balance of properties and generally lower cost.
Quote:
Did you ever do any research on diphenylamine-based esters?
Personally I did a lot of work with diphenylamine anti-oxidants. I was not involved in research to incorporate them into ester structures.
Tom NJ
Hi Tom, For the present, I think that PE, DIPE, TMP, and compounded esters will be relegated as base oil enhancers for Group III-IV oils.
Hi MolaKule,
I agree fully. TMPs are the most popular due to their good balance of properties and generally lower cost.
Quote:
Did you ever do any research on diphenylamine-based esters?
Personally I did a lot of work with diphenylamine anti-oxidants. I was not involved in research to incorporate them into ester structures.
Tom NJ
From this thread:
Quote:
I did ask Dave how much PAO is in their street oils, and he stated that they contain "mostly POE with a small amount of PAO". I find this to be a highly satisfactory answer. It confirms the presence of PAO but does not disclose percentages or formulas.
That's probably the most info you'll get about how much ester is in Red Line.
-Dennis
Quote:
I did ask Dave how much PAO is in their street oils, and he stated that they contain "mostly POE with a small amount of PAO". I find this to be a highly satisfactory answer. It confirms the presence of PAO but does not disclose percentages or formulas.
That's probably the most info you'll get about how much ester is in Red Line.
-Dennis
Okay Tribologists. These mentioned identifiers: PE, DIPE, and TMP are new to me. Could anyone elaborate?
Interesting thread... Thanks,
CompSyn
Interesting thread... Thanks,
CompSyn
MolaKule
Staff member
These are all specific polyol esters
PE - pentaerythritol-based ester
DIPE - di-pentaerythritol-based ester
TMP - trimethylolpropane
Here are some extra references for you to study:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729310#Post729310
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729337#Post729337
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/syntheticlubes/aboutesters.htmane-based ester
http://www.chemicalonline.com/content/pr...4-00a0c9c83afb}
PE - pentaerythritol-based ester
DIPE - di-pentaerythritol-based ester
TMP - trimethylolpropane
Here are some extra references for you to study:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729310#Post729310
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729337#Post729337
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/syntheticlubes/aboutesters.htmane-based ester
http://www.chemicalonline.com/content/pr...4-00a0c9c83afb}
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