Great thread, thanks Tom!
G.C. on GC GOLD - Base oil analysis
- Thread starter Tom NJ
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Hi Nebraskan,
The GC Green looks just like the Gold, except it's Green
PAO base oil with a tiny amount of carrier oil from the additives. No conventional esters visible and very little C=O absorbance, although it doesn't necessarily take much ester or Ketjenlube to give solubility and seal balance.
The GC Green looks just like the Gold, except it's Green
Speaking of the esters earlier in the threads, seems Motul 300V is using 2 types of esters as their base oil Ie "double ester" - a complex ester and a macromolecular 'polymer ester' (no idea on the MWt of that!). Maybe this is an oil Tom should fire into the machine if he happens to be bored one day!
This is what Molekule and Terry told us when they examined the green GC. The ester is one derived from a PAO and was not anything like what is used in other oils with esters. I think it took them a while to figure it out.
Ahhh, isn't marketing wonderful! Sorry, additional oil analysis isn't planned at this time.
Tom
Thanks for the analysis!! Some folks that were worried that the "Gold" formula might be far removed from the "Green" formula may now rest a bit easier about it's comparison. I believe this is what you are saying in a nutshell??
Tom,
Can G.C. device recognize a slack wax or similar substance ? When looking at GC Gold composition and the content of its components there is a feeling that they missed something:
................ Name .......................................... CAS .............. % ........
Branched hexatriacontane .......................... 151006-62-1 ..... 20-50
Calcium long chain alkyl salicylate ................. 83846-43-9 ...... 1 - 5
Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate ........................... 84605-29-8 ...... 0.1 - 1
Benzenamine, N-phenyl-, reaction products
with 2,4,4- trimethylpentene ....................... 68411-46-1 ...... 0.1 - 1
Alkoxylated long chain alkyl alcohol proprietary ....................... 0.1 - 1
.....................................................................................................
Total, %: ........................................................................ 21.3-58
May be what G.C. sees is a highly refined base oil (IP 346 DMSO extract < 3%) used for additives, but cannot recognize a slack wax ? I ask because Castrol often "forgets" to mention that some of its synthetic oils contain 20-50 % of a slack wax (Cas No. 92062-09-4).
Can G.C. device recognize a slack wax or similar substance ? When looking at GC Gold composition and the content of its components there is a feeling that they missed something:
................ Name .......................................... CAS .............. % ........
Branched hexatriacontane .......................... 151006-62-1 ..... 20-50
Calcium long chain alkyl salicylate ................. 83846-43-9 ...... 1 - 5
Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate ........................... 84605-29-8 ...... 0.1 - 1
Benzenamine, N-phenyl-, reaction products
with 2,4,4- trimethylpentene ....................... 68411-46-1 ...... 0.1 - 1
Alkoxylated long chain alkyl alcohol proprietary ....................... 0.1 - 1
.....................................................................................................
Total, %: ........................................................................ 21.3-58
May be what G.C. sees is a highly refined base oil (IP 346 DMSO extract < 3%) used for additives, but cannot recognize a slack wax ? I ask because Castrol often "forgets" to mention that some of its synthetic oils contain 20-50 % of a slack wax (Cas No. 92062-09-4).
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Thanks for the analysis!! Some folks that were worried that the "Gold" formula might be far removed from the "Green" formula may now rest a bit easier about it's comparison. I believe this is what you are saying in a nutshell??
I'd like to know what he's saying too. I can't make any sense out of the technical mumbo-jumbo, it's way over my head.
I think the bottom line here is that a simple G.C. shot cannot differentiate all the base oil chemistry in GC. In all truly due respect to Tom
- his first post in this thread is misleading.
I suffered a PC crash early this year and lost TERRY's email that was sent to the original GC analysis list of donators. Perhaps one of you others could share a quick synopsis of that report.
I suffered a PC crash early this year and lost TERRY's email that was sent to the original GC analysis list of donators. Perhaps one of you others could share a quick synopsis of that report.
Patman
Staff member
Pablo, check your email.
Thanks Patman - I'll be home in 4-5 hours to check my email.
The bottom line of the report from Terry was that green GC is a PAO formulation with esters derived from PAO and that it does not contain any viscosity index improvers.
As my recollection goes, glx. Those esters don't exactly show up in a single G.C. shot.
Hi Primus,
Our high temperature G.C. columns will show all volatile organics up to roughly 1,500 molecular weight and sometimes higher (depending on the chemistry). This includes all typical base oils such as PAOs up to and including 10 cSt, ANs up to and including 12 cSt, esters up to and including 15 cSt, and mineral oils up to and including 600N. It can also see the light end portions of heavier organics, enough to allow identification in many cases. In short it can easily see about 90% of a typical motor oil, missing only some additives such as the VII solids, portions of organometallic detergents and polymeric dispersants, and other heavy compounds such as some Ketjenlubes. Each base oil has its own distinct thumbprint which is easily readable by one experienced in motor oil analysis.
M1 is reported to contain some high viscosity SuperSyn PAOs at an additive dosage, and these will not show. Hence if M1 has say 10% of heavy PAO then I will likely be looking at 80% of their oil instead of 90%.
Tom
Our high temperature G.C. columns will show all volatile organics up to roughly 1,500 molecular weight and sometimes higher (depending on the chemistry). This includes all typical base oils such as PAOs up to and including 10 cSt, ANs up to and including 12 cSt, esters up to and including 15 cSt, and mineral oils up to and including 600N. It can also see the light end portions of heavier organics, enough to allow identification in many cases. In short it can easily see about 90% of a typical motor oil, missing only some additives such as the VII solids, portions of organometallic detergents and polymeric dispersants, and other heavy compounds such as some Ketjenlubes. Each base oil has its own distinct thumbprint which is easily readable by one experienced in motor oil analysis.
M1 is reported to contain some high viscosity SuperSyn PAOs at an additive dosage, and these will not show. Hence if M1 has say 10% of heavy PAO then I will likely be looking at 80% of their oil instead of 90%.
Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks a lot for your clarifications. The only question that still remains obscure for me is where they lost other 42 % of GC composition. Irrespective what it may be: PAO, severely hydrotreated slack wax or something else, but min. 42 % is missing.
Thanks a lot for your clarifications. The only question that still remains obscure for me is where they lost other 42 % of GC composition. Irrespective what it may be: PAO, severely hydrotreated slack wax or something else, but min. 42 % is missing.
Hi Primus,
What 42%? Is that from Terry's analysis?
By the way, I have been in the ester business all my life and I have never heard of an ester derived from PAO, nor has our technical director. Could someone explain what this chemistry is, or is it just a descriptive term?
Tom
What 42%? Is that from Terry's analysis?
By the way, I have been in the ester business all my life and I have never heard of an ester derived from PAO, nor has our technical director. Could someone explain what this chemistry is, or is it just a descriptive term?
Tom
No Tom, this 42 % is not from Terry's analysis (GC Green). I get it from MSDS of Castrol SLX Longtec (that is supposed to be GC Gold), but to explain I have to refer to my post of 06/11.
According MSDS GC Gold contains 20-50 % of PAO in the form of branched hexatriacontane and 1.3-8 % of other components, i.e. the total volume of indicated components is 58 % only. Thus, MSDS is missing a component or components and there should be something else that represents another 42 % of the composition.
According MSDS GC Gold contains 20-50 % of PAO in the form of branched hexatriacontane and 1.3-8 % of other components, i.e. the total volume of indicated components is 58 % only. Thus, MSDS is missing a component or components and there should be something else that represents another 42 % of the composition.
Tom, start reading this page and pay attention to what Molekule and Terry post concerning these ester's - http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...art=16&vc=1
I have a sample of green syntec from 2003 or so, you still wanna play with it?
Hi Outersquare,
Thanks, but I did an older green and newer gold and they looked the same.
Tom
Thanks, but I did an older green and newer gold and they looked the same.
Tom
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