need help choosing small concealed carry pistol

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Please explain how a properly holster gun is going to shoot someone? Muzzle sweep is when you're holding a gun. Not properly carrying. Messing with the gun in an attempt to not sweep someone while carrying is infinitely more troublesome than just carrying.


This times 1000. Arguing about "muzzling" people with a properly holstered firearm is just ridiculous. Carry a gun for a living, like I did as a cop, and pay attention to where that gun is pointing, and you will realize that the gun is pointing at people 20 times a day. Not a big deal, not a concern, guns just dont go off in holsters.

A holstered firearm, be on your hip, in your pocket, or in a shoulder holster, WILL point at other people as you go about your normal daily activities of moving around.

Anyone that's been carrying for any length of time already knows and realizes what I have explained. Anyone worried about "muzzling" a properly holstered firearm is probably new to carrying.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Anyone worried about "muzzling" a properly holstered firearm is probably new to carrying.


I am new to carrying. Probably about three years, now. My comfort level with carrying is not yet to the point where I will knowingly allow myself to muzzle sweep someone else with a pistol in my pocket. Maybe one day I'll be there, I don't know.

Respectfully, calling the discussion "ridiculous" is not productive. If the intention is to help those of us new to carrying to understand the fundamentals better, there are more effective approaches than calling it "ridiculous" and saying, "ah, you must be new here."

 

[bubbatime]

OK I was a little gruff. Being aware of where your muzzle is pointing is good awareness. All I was trying to say is that in a proper holster, guns dont just go off. It probably takes a few years of daily carry before you stop worrying about it.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Are you comfortable with the soft-sided felt holsters commonly sold for these types of guns? With my kydex holsters for my Shield, I KNOW that gun is snapped into the holster. I KNOW exactly where it is. With the soft-sided holsters in a pocket, I'm not 100% sure that the gun hasn't slid "up" out of the holster when I sit-and-stand a number of times. The holster doesn't have a retention loop, so I'm not 100% positive that that trigger guard is completely covered.

I suppose that if i had it in a kydex pocket holster, where the gun physically snaps in, I'd at least be more confident that the gun hasn't started to "float" in the holster.

 

[hatt]

I pocket carry everyday in a soft holster. The gun does not move in the holster. And the holster doesn't move very much, if any, depending on the pocket design. Sitting, standing, walking, casual biking, etc. If you're running or doing some other more extreme activity I don't know. Put it in your Camelbak, etc.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd


I suppose that if i had it in a kydex pocket holster, where the gun physically snaps in, I'd at least be more confident that the gun hasn't started to "float" in the holster.

I know I will be criticised here. But here goes. I carry the LPC in a soft pocket "holster" It does keep it in place. I carry the Shield, LC9s, and the G43 at 2:00+ OWB (cooler weather).

I don't keep one in the pipe. I practice pulling them them out and racking them. No safety on the G43 or LPC. Safety off on the Shield and LC9s. I practice and dry fire in that condition. When I am alone at the range I do it hot.

 

[bubbatime]

I despise soft holsters. I use kydex pocket holsters. My favorite ones are made by AHolster.

 

[Falken]

Wow this is becoming a great thread!

 

[Jim_Bob]

I didn't read all the posts so this may have been said...
but I live in FL and use horsehide crossbreed holsters for me daily carry and love them.

 

[Doog]

I have a desantis for my lcp and jframes

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

This times 1000. Arguing about "muzzling" people with a properly holstered firearm is just ridiculous. Carry a gun for a living, like I did as a cop, and pay attention to where that gun is pointing, and you will realize that the gun is pointing at people 20 times a day. Not a big deal, not a concern, guns just dont go off in holsters.

A holstered firearm, be on your hip, in your pocket, or in a shoulder holster, WILL point at other people as you go about your normal daily activities of moving around.

Anyone that's been carrying for any length of time already knows and realizes what I have explained. Anyone worried about "muzzling" a properly holstered firearm is probably new to carrying.


First, I'm not new to carrying a handgun.

Second, I carry in a belt holster and sometimes an IWB holster, under a loose shirt, every day and can't think of a situation throughout a normal day where the muzzle is pointing at another person. Not when standing, not when sitting, not when walking, not when riding my mountain bike, not when driving, when I have to pick something up or look at something low I kneel, not bend at the waist. I guess if I went up a ladder and someone were at the bottom....? I've watched guys shooting prone with a belt holstered pistol and haven't seen the pistol sweeping bystanders. Please tell me what normal daily activities cause my pistol to point at people all day long?

So if you were sitting at at table and I walked up and placed a holstered pistol on the table with the muzzle pointing at your chest you'd be OK with that? I darn sure wouldn't be and nobody I shoot with would be either, be you stranger or friend. (bubba, I know you didn't paste that paragraph but it's part of the discussion) If I had placed a loaded cased rifle on the kitchen table at home I'd have been whipped within an inch of my life. I was taught, drilled, a loaded gun is never carried with the barrel in the horizontal, up or down only with extreme care to muzzle direction at all times. You're saying I was taught wrong?

Pocket carry... you're sitting in a restaurant with your pistol in you pocket holster and someone holds up the cashier and/or starts toward you or just starts shooting can you get that pistol out without standing or otherwise drawing attention to yourself or sweeping others while you're getting it on target and get a shot off in under say 2 seconds? You can do it easily with a belt holster and the muzzle goes from down to an arc directly to the threat. We take chairs out and practice. If you haven't with your pistol in you pocket you should.

The thing about the 2 sides of this endless discussion is this: My choice of carry and acute awareness of muzzle direction at all times places you in the least danger of being harmed by my weapon that I can provide, and I can present my pistol faster than any of these other methods without sweeping varying degrees of the area around me, in a high stress life and death situation. You can't say the same about pocket carry, holstered or otherwise, or shoulder carry, or weak side horizontal.

I believe our right to bear arms also comes with a deadly serious responsibility to minimize to the greatest degree possible any danger to innocent bystanders from our weapons. Some carry methods don't meet this responsibility in my opinion.

 

[hatt]

How do you keep the muzzle pointed straight down at all times to prevent ricochets from hitting bystanders? Holster have a gyroscope?

 

[AZjeff]

Notice I said to the greatest degree possible? Primarily not sweeping others with a loaded pistol by choice. Ricochets the best you got? Are you OK with a loaded holstered pistol on the table pointed at you?

Bottom line is I'm going to do my absolute best to not sweep anyone with a loaded gun and wish others would try to be considerate as well.

 

[hatt]

Yes I'm OK with a unmolested loaded holstered gun pointing at me. I understand it's no threat to me or anyone else. I do not endlessly ponder what ifs.

 

[AZjeff]

Back sort of on topic, the new popularity of what was a BUG gun for primary carry is kind of unfortunate. The mouse guns have less capacity, are by design less accurate and are harder to shoot well. We give up some of what we carry a defensive pistol for in the name of convenience.

Yeah, we say it's a close-in pistol, blah blah but if it's the only weapon you have available it may not be. Can you get good hits fast at 7 or 10 yards? What if you have to?

One of the guys was at a course where they were looking at the 21 foot rule for a knife threat so we did some different drills. One guy would stand 21 feet away on the shooter's off side and would charge the shooter and pass behind him, the shooter had to draw and fire at a target 5 feet in front of him. Guess what, from a belt holster you're going to get cut as you fire your first shot, from a pocket holster forget it. Believe what you want but try it. What we learned was if there's a knife threat within 30 feet and you have a pistol draw it now. If you carry in a pocket holster practice the draw a lot.

 

[hatt]

Nothing unfortunate. Small guns allow more people to carry. Gun better than no gun. The 21 foot rule is more geared towards law enforcement. Of course concealed guns are slower into action. Concealed small guns, or concealed duty sized guns are always going to be slower. You're in AZ, are you open carrying?

 

[Hokiefyd]

I perceive my biggest threat to be a parking lot robbery. Walking to the car at night, someone jumps out. From that standpoint, I prefer pocket carry because my hand is already on the gun. As I walk through the parking lot, my right hand is in my front pocket on the back of the grip of my P-32. I have the gun out of my pocket as quick and as easy as slipping my hand out of my pocket. It's one motion.

If I have a gun on a belt, especially under concealment, I need to use both hands, lift my shirt with one as I cup the backstrap with the other, and then draw. There are many motions associated with that. It can be fast, absolutely. If you're already sitting, there's no question that a gun on a belt is more accessible than a gun in a pocket. If you're standing, and if you already have your hand at the ready, then I think it can be the other way around.

Regarding your larger point that smaller guns as primary carry are in the name of convenience -- absolutely. I think it can be accurately said that regardless of what you carry, you could be carrying something larger. You could be carrying a shotgun or a rifle. I think we all assess our individual risk based on a variety of factors and make our carry choices accordingly. I think the ability we have now to fit a gun to our own personal application allows more people to carry firearms, which I think is a good thing.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I perceive my biggest threat to be a parking lot robbery. Walking to the car at night, someone jumps out. From that standpoint, I prefer pocket carry because my hand is already on the gun. As I walk through the parking lot, my right hand is in my front pocket on the back of the grip of my P-32. I have the gun out of my pocket as quick and as easy as slipping my hand out of my pocket. It's one motion.


+1 So absolutely true. Here many of the robberies are done as crimes of opportunity. Thugs walk around waiting for the guy or girl who is looking at their phone, fumbling with keys, talking on the phone, or just not paying attention. We had an older (age 61) guy here walking through a parking garage talking on his phone with his left hand and has his right hand in his pocket on his revolver. Two thug punks watched him walk all the way to his car then ran up behind him with a gun and said give us your keys and money old man. The kid in the front lifted his shirt and showed him his gun tucked neatly in his belt. The old guy turned and shot him in his right eye ending the threat...while thug #2 took off running. So pocket guns are very worthwhile when deployed correctly.

Note: of course the liberal media only aired the story 3 weeks later.

 

[AZjeff]

Appreciate reading about your different states of readiness with pocket pistols, still haven't been able to warm up to one. I can shoot a G43 just a tic less accurately than a G19 doing deliberate fire but at speed and doubles it opens up more than I'd like.

I don't OC but any time I'm out around people I'll notice at least one person armed. It's pretty cool to see husband & wife both armed going about their business as usual.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Nothing unfortunate. Small guns allow more people to carry. Gun better than no gun. The 21 foot rule is more geared towards law enforcement. Of course concealed guns are slower into action. Concealed small guns, or concealed duty sized guns are always going to be slower.

+100 (for a change)