Don't discount coal for a long while yet...

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Originally Posted By: SHOZ
It's not like solar and wind are the only alternatives to coal. Most coal plants here are either being upgraded to NG or closed.


Of course they aren't the only alternatives, but they are the only ones universally branded as "green", since they aren't a burner. Even HE is hit or miss as to whether a group considers it "green" or not, the same goes for nukes. They (wind/solar) are also the largest percentage of new builds due to things like tax incentives, REC's, and higher (subsidized) rates being paid to those generators.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Sounds like Australia has unique problems. The main problem in the US is the lack of interconnectivty through out the nation on the major grids. There is no reason for there to be any lack of power.


No, whereever you have the requirement to use and distribute power, the problems are there.

South Australia and Tasmania have made themselves look good to one sector of the economy, lauding how "green" they are, while being supported in what matters by brown coal at the end of the transmission line...while ignoring completely what a grid requires in terms of stability.

NG, as soon as it started getting used competitively to provide electricity started to price itself out of the power game....Supply and demand, everything's cheap until you use enough of it.
 
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/your-business/...copley-1.693464

Sad times.. more of what little industry remains is going away.

Quote:
Most of the eliminated positions, 113, were in Barberton. With the layoffs, the company’s power segment payroll totals 737 employees in Barberton and 120 employees in Copley. Employees were told Tuesday of the cuts.
B&W Enterprises is the largest private employer in Barberton
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
You should watch system frequency as wind gusts move across the Eastern Seaboard of Oz...full 0.1Hz up and down, up and down.

South Australia was islanded November last year, and the thermals/GTs were struggling with the power of wind, bounced them up to 50.57Hz, after pulling them down to 49.8


The new normal. Grids will be more loosey goosey. You got to totally reaccess your under frequency load shedding program.


49.8 to 50.1 is the new 50Hz in Oz.

With the increase in unscheduled wind power, the responsibility is being hammered onto the thermals to cover it, and fines issued for not controlling it.

Some of the generators with EHGs are disabling the droop characteristics entirely, and withdrawing from that part of the market...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

49.8 to 50.1 is the new 50Hz in Oz.


Good lord. Its all fun and games until somebody's generator shaft gets snapped.

Have there been any incidents along those lines? Certainly that sort of variation can't be good for the equipment, can it?
 
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/en...0Qml50.linkedin

Quote:
For starters, the EIA says the plan will mean “significantly higher” prices for residential and commercial electricity. They attribute this to “higher transmission and distribution costs” coming at a time when electricity consumption will also grow slightly (in 2015-2040.)

Interestingly, the EIA projects that these higher electricity prices will actually reduce demand 2% by 2030. Why? Because “compliance actions and higher prices” will force cash-strapped consumers to adopt their own austerity measures.
A key part of the CPP is the dismantling of coal-fired power in the U.S. As the EIA sees it, “Coal’s share of total electricity generation, which was 50% in 2005 and 33% in 2015, falls to 21% in 2030 and to 18% in 2040.” Coal power plants currently anchor America’s base-load electricity generation, so it’s understandable that their elimination would drive up prices. But is such a move justified?

The EIA projects that “renewable energy” (solar and wind) will play a “significant role in meeting electricity demand growth throughout most of the country.” It’s a bold gamble, since the EIA believes that renewables will account for 27% of total U.S. generation by 2040. But EIA data shows wind and solar power supplying only 5.6% of U.S. electricity generation in 2015. So, the jump to 27% will require significant investments.

What’s instructive is EIA data on Germany, where residential retail electric prices have risen, and are expected to keep rising, due to higher taxes and fees for renewable power. Overall, Germany’s foray into green energy has driven the average residential electricity price to 35 cents/kWh, almost three times the U.S. average of 13 cents/kWh. Along with Denmark, Germany has some of the highest residential electricity prices in Europe.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/en...0Qml50.linkedin

Quote:
For starters, the EIA says the plan will mean “significantly higher” prices for residential and commercial electricity. They attribute this to “higher transmission and distribution costs” coming at a time when electricity consumption will also grow slightly (in 2015-2040.)

Interestingly, the EIA projects that these higher electricity prices will actually reduce demand 2% by 2030. Why? Because “compliance actions and higher prices” will force cash-strapped consumers to adopt their own austerity measures.
A key part of the CPP is the dismantling of coal-fired power in the U.S. As the EIA sees it, “Coal’s share of total electricity generation, which was 50% in 2005 and 33% in 2015, falls to 21% in 2030 and to 18% in 2040.” Coal power plants currently anchor America’s base-load electricity generation, so it’s understandable that their elimination would drive up prices. But is such a move justified?

The EIA projects that “renewable energy” (solar and wind) will play a “significant role in meeting electricity demand growth throughout most of the country.” It’s a bold gamble, since the EIA believes that renewables will account for 27% of total U.S. generation by 2040. But EIA data shows wind and solar power supplying only 5.6% of U.S. electricity generation in 2015. So, the jump to 27% will require significant investments.

What’s instructive is EIA data on Germany, where residential retail electric prices have risen, and are expected to keep rising, due to higher taxes and fees for renewable power. Overall, Germany’s foray into green energy has driven the average residential electricity price to 35 cents/kWh, almost three times the U.S. average of 13 cents/kWh. Along with Denmark, Germany has some of the highest residential electricity prices in Europe.


And now imagine charging your electric vehicle at those rates
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/en...0Qml50.linkedin

Quote:
For starters, the EIA says the plan will mean “significantly higher” prices for residential and commercial electricity. They attribute this to “higher transmission and distribution costs” coming at a time when electricity consumption will also grow slightly (in 2015-2040.)

Interestingly, the EIA projects that these higher electricity prices will actually reduce demand 2% by 2030. Why? Because “compliance actions and higher prices” will force cash-strapped consumers to adopt their own austerity measures.
A key part of the CPP is the dismantling of coal-fired power in the U.S. As the EIA sees it, “Coal’s share of total electricity generation, which was 50% in 2005 and 33% in 2015, falls to 21% in 2030 and to 18% in 2040.” Coal power plants currently anchor America’s base-load electricity generation, so it’s understandable that their elimination would drive up prices. But is such a move justified?

The EIA projects that “renewable energy” (solar and wind) will play a “significant role in meeting electricity demand growth throughout most of the country.” It’s a bold gamble, since the EIA believes that renewables will account for 27% of total U.S. generation by 2040. But EIA data shows wind and solar power supplying only 5.6% of U.S. electricity generation in 2015. So, the jump to 27% will require significant investments.

What’s instructive is EIA data on Germany, where residential retail electric prices have risen, and are expected to keep rising, due to higher taxes and fees for renewable power. Overall, Germany’s foray into green energy has driven the average residential electricity price to 35 cents/kWh, almost three times the U.S. average of 13 cents/kWh. Along with Denmark, Germany has some of the highest residential electricity prices in Europe.


And now imagine charging your electric vehicle at those rates
crazy2.gif



My inlaws have beyond broken even in just a few years on solar because they're paying 50c/kWh. I'm not seeing how it's any different anyplace else. People can adapt the technology to best minimize their costs.

The grid instability issue is another story though. Even if they idle sending power back to the grid, and higher demand charges to account for arbitrage and plant physics, so long as there's a 60Hz signal and dropping solar costs, more should be able to take advantage.

Simplified current limit in power electronics makes the solar side an easier play I think, in distributed generation.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

My inlaws have beyond broken even in just a few years on solar because they're paying 50c/kWh. I'm not seeing how it's any different anyplace else. People can adapt the technology to best minimize their costs.


Can you clarify this? Are you saying that they (your inlaws) face hydro rates of 50c/KWh, so they installed solar panels or that they are being paid 50c/KWh by the utility for the power they are selling back to them generated via solar?

The subsidies will eventually dry up if it is the latter. They are only being handed out the way they are currently to get mass adoption/market penetration. If it is the former, then yes, that kind of hydro rate certainly makes the pursuit of alternative means of getting your power worthwhile.

Australia is one of the first I know to scrap the subsidy:
http://www.resourcesandenergy.nsw.gov.au...ar-bonus-scheme

They were paying some customers 60 cents, others 20. As of December, those folks will get the market rate of between 5.5 and 7.2 cents per KWh. Which is comparable to what we pay our nukes for hydro here in Canada FWIW.

Quote:
The grid instability issue is another story though. Even if they idle sending power back to the grid, and higher demand charges to account for arbitrage and plant physics, so long as there's a 60Hz signal and dropping solar costs, more should be able to take advantage.

Simplified current limit in power electronics makes the solar side an easier play I think, in distributed generation.



It's the necessary backups for when they aren't contributing or suddenly start contributing that's the issue, and the same goes for wind. Smoothing those dips and spikes requires further investments and technology and doesn't seem to be well, if at all, planned for unfortunately
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
My inlaws have beyond broken even in just a few years on solar because they're paying 50c/kWh. I'm not seeing how it's any different anyplace else. People can adapt the technology to best minimize their costs.

The grid instability issue is another story though. Even if they idle sending power back to the grid, and higher demand charges to account for arbitrage and plant physics, so long as there's a 60Hz signal and dropping solar costs, more should be able to take advantage.

Simplified current limit in power electronics makes the solar side an easier play I think, in distributed generation.


Oz, in a market of 4c/KWh wholesale rates, and 23c/KWh retail rates gave homeowners 60c feed in tarriff, 40% rebate on installation, and 5 times as many green credits as the cells saved in CO2...in my state, 500MW of rooftop solar was going in every year (12,000MW is about the max demand in the state, so it's sizeable).

Turns out that the cells were supposed to be oriented NNW, to better match the demand, but the installers ran them due north to better meet the income generation for homeowners...there's talk of making them move them, but people get upset at that.

New installations must meet the direction, and get less that 10c/KWh, and as OVERKILL states, they are winding back the extraordinarily dumb super tarriffs that early adopters got...and they are whingeing about "being ripped off"...

Fact remains that to replace the coal, you need more than the disruption of solar and wind that have driven down wholesale...you need to install 3-4 times as much (nameplate rating) of these two renewables, PLUS have enough storage to supply 2/3 of your daily needs...THAT's going to be expensive, and isn't factored into the "cheap" renewables argument.

edit...just had a look at Oz data...South Australia Heaps of wind, and has pushed coal out of that state, has for the last three weeks averaged 35C/KWh WHOLESALE prices, today with ridiculous wind is running at -8.6c/KWH...Gas (and oil) generators are being constrained on to provide the stability and frequency, but then are PAYING to produce the energy.
 
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What's the market share percent of electricity produced for solar and wind down there? Must be pretty good chunk to drive the wholesale rates.
 
LOL, watching in real time, the wind is gusting...

Last 5 minutes, the wholesale was $13,300/MWh, $13.30.KWh, this 5 minutes it's -3.66c.

Frequency is all over the shop

edit...this 5 mins -$1/KWh
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

And now imagine charging your electric vehicle at those rates
crazy2.gif



And it's not even factoring in the tax that the government will eventually add to the charging rates for cars.
I bet the people that are blindly cheering for all this "green" energy today, will be the first ones to scream bloody murder once the rates skyrocket.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

And now imagine charging your electric vehicle at those rates
crazy2.gif



And it's not even factoring in the tax that the government will eventually add to the charging rates for cars.
I bet the people that are blindly cheering for all this "green" energy today, will be the first ones to scream bloody murder once the rates skyrocket.


Of course, that goes without saying
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And they will of course pretend that there was no warning........
 
Regardless of whose in, personal transportation attracts "sin taxes".

Oz did it with Propane, no transport taxes on it until the market was pretty well saturated, now it's 80-90c/l...still cheaper than RUG /gal equivalent, but not enough to pay for a $3,000 conversion.

When home CNG charging stations were starting to hit our shorelines, they passed rules that IF you had a CNG setup in your home, you would be charged the transport levy on every joule that entered your property, domestic heating or transport...killed that initiative stone dead.

EVs will be the same.
 
Low natural gas prices helped keep wholesale electricity prices towards the bottom of the 12-month range in spite of some higher peak demand levels that occurred towards the end of the month.

For the seventeenth consecutive month, the price of natural gas at Henry Hub was below the price of Central Appalachian coal on a $/MWh basis.

A feature article on how operating coal-fired generating capacity has declined 15% since 2011 in response to low natural gas prices and environmental regulatory compliance.

See the full Electricity Monthly Update report, http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/update/
 
Follow the Chinese, they as the owner of a dictatorship, producer of the energy, and consumer of the energy, knows what they are doing and what make sense.

People there complains about the pollution, and they know the limit on when a life is too cheap or too expensive to start reducing pollution. Last time I heard from a coworker based in China, his hometown's small scale coal mine got shut down because (either corruption to get rid of competition or not enough political influence) of local pollution of the mining, as well as small coal plants getting forced shutdown (less political influenced owner) and replaced by larger plants (more political influenced owner).

They build a few massive dams that changed the national landscape so they can power millions of people using hydro power (and suppress protests about the forced relocation and environmental damages).

They build more new nuke plants than the rest of the world combined, with different types of reactors from aboard and home grown technologies (from technology transfer), so they will have the best and the worst designs, but not all eggs in one basket, so they will not need to shut down all of the nukes if they find problems later (and they will).

They build all sorts of renewable just in case it takes off, so they will not be left behind with old power generations when the rest of the world move forwards.

And most importantly: they are leaders in the high voltage DC power grid, when the rest of the world (like the US) is stuck with local power transmission limitation that makes production inefficient and fluctuate rather than stabilize.


A dictatorship tends to have fewer "not in my backyard" problems that a democratic and free nation faces everyday.
 
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