It is not a ADBV valve problem. Nor is a problem with oil draining back. An extended rattle after start up can be caused by low pressure at the valve lifter, not necessarily in the whole oil system.
Fram Ultra ADBV problem.
- Thread starter A_Nelsen
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Im Running T6 with an Ultra Guard on my 97 Miata I do get start up Hydraulic lash adjusters noise which almost instantly goes away, its a common noise on high mileage engines, no damage is being done.
You can read how the lifters work here
http://www.miata.net/garage/hla/
You can read how the lifters work here
http://www.miata.net/garage/hla/
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Trav
If the filter is causing startup noise it either has a bad ADBV or it dont flow as well as they claim, its that simple.
It's not a flow issue.
Sorry no matter how many times you say it doesn't mean I am going to believe it. The bottom line is there are engines experiencing noise with these filter and are not making noise when the filter is swapped out for another brand.
Reading this thread one guy tried 3 of them all with the same result, I doubt all 3 had a defective ADBV.
Just sayin, there is smoke coming from under the door, its not a stretch to think there might be fire behind it.
Care to explain how a positive displacement oil pump can't put out 1 GPM? If the guy sees oil pressure in a second or two after start-up, then it's not a 'filter flow' issue. As someone mentioned above, it could be a flow issue to the valve train within the engine itself.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Trav
If the filter is causing startup noise it either has a bad ADBV or it dont flow as well as they claim, its that simple.
It's not a flow issue.
Sorry no matter how many times you say it doesn't mean I am going to believe it. The bottom line is there are engines experiencing noise with these filter and are not making noise when the filter is swapped out for another brand.
Reading this thread one guy tried 3 of them all with the same result, I doubt all 3 had a defective ADBV.
Just sayin, there is smoke coming from under the door, its not a stretch to think there might be fire behind it.
Care to explain how a positive displacement oil pump can't put out 1 GPM? If the guy sees oil pressure in a second or two after start-up, then it's not a 'filter flow' issue. As someone mentioned above, it could be a flow issue to the valve train within the engine itself.
Originally Posted By: thescreensavers
Im Running T6 with an Ultra Guard on my 97 Miata I do get start up Hydraulic lash adjusters noise which almost instantly goes away, its a common noise on high mileage engines, no damage is being done.
You can read how the lifters work here
http://www.miata.net/garage/hla/
I know how they work and realize that there are many Miatas with valve train noise at all rpms accumulating hundreds of thousands of miles. My point is that the noise went away and while it's possible that it was from the oil used I suspect the filter for now. Either way I'd rather not hear any clatter.
The next oil change I'll screw on a tough guard and continue using the Mobil HM.
Edit: I like that diagram you linked.
Im Running T6 with an Ultra Guard on my 97 Miata I do get start up Hydraulic lash adjusters noise which almost instantly goes away, its a common noise on high mileage engines, no damage is being done.
You can read how the lifters work here
http://www.miata.net/garage/hla/
I know how they work and realize that there are many Miatas with valve train noise at all rpms accumulating hundreds of thousands of miles. My point is that the noise went away and while it's possible that it was from the oil used I suspect the filter for now. Either way I'd rather not hear any clatter.
The next oil change I'll screw on a tough guard and continue using the Mobil HM.
Edit: I like that diagram you linked.
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Originally Posted By: A_Nelsen
I drive a 94 Miata and they have a propensity for valvetrain noise upon start-up and really valvetrain noise in general. I was running Rotella T6 5W-40 and a Fram ultra and there was a rattle almost every start-up.
I have switched to a cheap (red can) Purolator and Mobil 1 high mileage 10W-30 full synthetic. Since the change there has been no rattle and there is actually greater oil pressure.
Any thoughts?
How dare you attack the sacred name of the Fram Ultra?!?!
It is like Scientology, once you criticize the club, you end up dead. It was nice knowing you...
But seriously, what are my thoughts? Sounds like you fixed the problem with a filter that is better suited to your engine. Good job!
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Framboys will never admit to a problem.
First the problem and cause have to be identified to believe it. There isn't anything to admit without proof. Assumptions can be wrong. Not admitting, denying, a problem is seeing a Purolator torn filters spreadsheet, many pictures of torn Purolator filters, ignoring the evidence, and saying there is no problem. Haven't seen anyone dissect the claimed Fram tickers to see what is wrong, just make the claim, cast doubt, and go. No sending in, nothing. Has nothing at all to do with the product being made by Fram.
Framboys will never admit to a problem. Framboys will throw in personal opinions about Pure One filters when the discussion relates to the Boss. Framboys can't stand the notion that someone thinks the Boss is a good filter and the Framboy tries to cloud the issue with remarks unrelated to the discussion. Framboys will be the FIRST to try to shift the discussion away from a satisfied Purolator customer.
Well put!
Well, now you are definitely not allowed into the bat cave.
Hopefully you wont be suspended for speaking the truth!!!
It has happened before...cough...cough...
Originally Posted By: A_Nelsen
In conclusion, I'm not throwing Fram out the window; I may even replace this Purolator with an orange can or try some Wixcraft. I simply had a noise that was remedied.
I probably won't buy another ultra because I don't need to. My car doesn't go too long between oil changes; some may say that it changes itself once during the cycle because it burns so much. I'd rather get the cheaper filter and replace every 5,000 miles.
Wait...Im confused.
You used a Fram product, you had start up noise.
You changed to another filter brand, problem solved.
Now you want to change what is obviously working...with another Fram product...and an Orange can of death at that...?
Good luck!
I drive a 94 Miata and they have a propensity for valvetrain noise upon start-up and really valvetrain noise in general. I was running Rotella T6 5W-40 and a Fram ultra and there was a rattle almost every start-up.
I have switched to a cheap (red can) Purolator and Mobil 1 high mileage 10W-30 full synthetic. Since the change there has been no rattle and there is actually greater oil pressure.
Any thoughts?
How dare you attack the sacred name of the Fram Ultra?!?!
It is like Scientology, once you criticize the club, you end up dead. It was nice knowing you...
But seriously, what are my thoughts? Sounds like you fixed the problem with a filter that is better suited to your engine. Good job!
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Framboys will never admit to a problem.
First the problem and cause have to be identified to believe it. There isn't anything to admit without proof. Assumptions can be wrong. Not admitting, denying, a problem is seeing a Purolator torn filters spreadsheet, many pictures of torn Purolator filters, ignoring the evidence, and saying there is no problem. Haven't seen anyone dissect the claimed Fram tickers to see what is wrong, just make the claim, cast doubt, and go. No sending in, nothing. Has nothing at all to do with the product being made by Fram.
Framboys will never admit to a problem. Framboys will throw in personal opinions about Pure One filters when the discussion relates to the Boss. Framboys can't stand the notion that someone thinks the Boss is a good filter and the Framboy tries to cloud the issue with remarks unrelated to the discussion. Framboys will be the FIRST to try to shift the discussion away from a satisfied Purolator customer.
Well put!
Well, now you are definitely not allowed into the bat cave.
Hopefully you wont be suspended for speaking the truth!!!
It has happened before...cough...cough...
Originally Posted By: A_Nelsen
In conclusion, I'm not throwing Fram out the window; I may even replace this Purolator with an orange can or try some Wixcraft. I simply had a noise that was remedied.
I probably won't buy another ultra because I don't need to. My car doesn't go too long between oil changes; some may say that it changes itself once during the cycle because it burns so much. I'd rather get the cheaper filter and replace every 5,000 miles.
Wait...Im confused.
You used a Fram product, you had start up noise.
You changed to another filter brand, problem solved.
Now you want to change what is obviously working...with another Fram product...and an Orange can of death at that...?
Good luck!
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What are you talking about? A gallon a minute and more.
You are dancing around like a politician not answering the question.
Why do not only these engines but some others also stop making noise when the filter is swapped for another brand?
Answer that and we can get somewhere.
I agree if it get oil pressure quickly flow is not the issue but is it really valve lifters making the noise or could it be the bypass or relief valve like in the one I had?
Originally Posted By: Cat
The filter can also cause this restriction due to too high an efficiency. The result of too high a
restriction is the opening of the by-pass valve
And that is exactly what mine was doing, I had full oil pressure 96 psi and it must have had full flow from the high volume pump to trip the bypass. My cold RPM is about 900-1000 for about a minute before it settles down and that's the time the noise was occurring.
Could it be the filter is just too efficient and not flowing enough oil when cold, instead going into immediate bypass?
I would like answers to the question, the noise was there and changing the filter stopped it, why? The quietest filters yet has been the Gold and XP/Platinum.
You are dancing around like a politician not answering the question.
Why do not only these engines but some others also stop making noise when the filter is swapped for another brand?
Answer that and we can get somewhere.
I agree if it get oil pressure quickly flow is not the issue but is it really valve lifters making the noise or could it be the bypass or relief valve like in the one I had?
Originally Posted By: Cat
The filter can also cause this restriction due to too high an efficiency. The result of too high a
restriction is the opening of the by-pass valve
And that is exactly what mine was doing, I had full oil pressure 96 psi and it must have had full flow from the high volume pump to trip the bypass. My cold RPM is about 900-1000 for about a minute before it settles down and that's the time the noise was occurring.
Could it be the filter is just too efficient and not flowing enough oil when cold, instead going into immediate bypass?
I would like answers to the question, the noise was there and changing the filter stopped it, why? The quietest filters yet has been the Gold and XP/Platinum.
Originally Posted By: thescreensavers
You can read how the lifters work here
http://www.miata.net/garage/hla/
The link explains why a thinner oil could make the lifters quiet: because it flows better through partially blocked tiny holes. I am not advocating the Fram Ultra. Maybe it flows 1% worse then other filters. And maybe that 1% is significant for worn lifters. I don't know. But for sure the filter is not the primary reason for the valve noise.
You can read how the lifters work here
http://www.miata.net/garage/hla/
The link explains why a thinner oil could make the lifters quiet: because it flows better through partially blocked tiny holes. I am not advocating the Fram Ultra. Maybe it flows 1% worse then other filters. And maybe that 1% is significant for worn lifters. I don't know. But for sure the filter is not the primary reason for the valve noise.
There is the other side of the coin, more likely I think, still not evidence but guessing, is a synthetic fiber matrix is less likely to hold oil back because oil doesn't penetrate the fibers like with cellulose. Synthetic fibers are like slippery plastic. So the easier flow through results in oil draining through the center tube after a shut down, leading to more oil fill time at start up. I think my theory is better than the other theories. hahaha
How about inspecting the filters for a defect, usually a defect can be found if there is one.
How about inspecting the filters for a defect, usually a defect can be found if there is one.
Every flow rate that has been posted on here, comparing for example Fram Ultra vs Pureone they don't seem to flow that different. Numbers are all in same range. It's not a flow problem.
Bypass stuck? Drain down overnight?
Without back to back test where only filter is changed is the only way to really know - So, 1) new Ultra (noise) 2) Filter B (no noise) 3) another new Ultra (noise? no noise?) 4) put back on first Ultra that had the noise, etc.... All on same oil. The rest is just anecdotes.
Bypass stuck? Drain down overnight?
Without back to back test where only filter is changed is the only way to really know - So, 1) new Ultra (noise) 2) Filter B (no noise) 3) another new Ultra (noise? no noise?) 4) put back on first Ultra that had the noise, etc.... All on same oil. The rest is just anecdotes.
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Every flow rate that has been posted on here, comparing for example Fram Ultra vs Pureone they don't seem to flow that different. Numbers are all in same range. It's not a flow problem.
Ultra (full synthetic media) actually flows better than the PureOne did based on test info given by Motorking a while back. There is no way it's a 'flow' problem ... especially with a positive displacement oil pump.
Every flow rate that has been posted on here, comparing for example Fram Ultra vs Pureone they don't seem to flow that different. Numbers are all in same range. It's not a flow problem.
Ultra (full synthetic media) actually flows better than the PureOne did based on test info given by Motorking a while back. There is no way it's a 'flow' problem ... especially with a positive displacement oil pump.
Shocking that the information that Motorking provided showed that his filter did better than the competition.
Come on now, a little critical thinking goes a long way.
It is not a flow problem.
Come on now, a little critical thinking goes a long way.
It is not a flow problem.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Critical thinking pretty much says that a full synthetic media will outflow a cellulose media.
We have seen too many instances of the Fram Ultra being a suspect of poor flow.
Critical thinking pretty much says that a full synthetic media will outflow a cellulose media.
We have seen too many instances of the Fram Ultra being a suspect of poor flow.
A free flowing filter will drain out easier through the media under gravity after a stop. A more restrictive cellulose media will flow less and hold the oil better. So, just the opposite, the Fram high flow rate could give the problem here, sooner. If it is the ADBV it should be possible to see what is wrong with it. The rest is guessing this and that like I just did.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Critical thinking pretty much says that a full synthetic media will outflow a cellulose media.
We have seen too many instances of the Fram Ultra being a suspect of poor flow.
By people that don't understand oil filter flow and the way an oiling system works.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Critical thinking pretty much says that a full synthetic media will outflow a cellulose media.
We have seen too many instances of the Fram Ultra being a suspect of poor flow.
By people that don't understand oil filter flow and the way an oiling system works.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Critical thinking pretty much says that a full synthetic media will outflow a cellulose media.
We have seen too many instances of the Fram Ultra being a suspect of poor flow.
By people that don't understand oil filter flow and the way an oiling system works.
But my ears sure can tell the difference.
What now, I should go and get my hearing checked?
Positive displacement pump, ported with a 98 PSI pressure relief, in the block oil bypass valve.
Pressure relief bleeds off excess pressure when over 98 PSI is reached and the bypass valve operates when pressure difference across the filter exceeds x psi, what dont I understand?
If my bypass is opening and closing like a fiddlers elbow when cold the pressure across the filter is exceeding the bypass setting meaning its not flowing properly. What am I missing here?
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Critical thinking pretty much says that a full synthetic media will outflow a cellulose media.
We have seen too many instances of the Fram Ultra being a suspect of poor flow.
By people that don't understand oil filter flow and the way an oiling system works.
But my ears sure can tell the difference.
What now, I should go and get my hearing checked?
Positive displacement pump, ported with a 98 PSI pressure relief, in the block oil bypass valve.
Pressure relief bleeds off excess pressure when over 98 PSI is reached and the bypass valve operates when pressure difference across the filter exceeds x psi, what dont I understand?
If my bypass is opening and closing like a fiddlers elbow when cold the pressure across the filter is exceeding the bypass setting meaning its not flowing properly. What am I missing here?
Originally Posted By: Trav
If my bypass is opening and closing like a fiddlers elbow when cold the pressure across the filter is exceeding the bypass setting meaning its not flowing properly. What am I missing here?
I was talking generally when I said "By people ..."
How do you know your bypass valve is operating correctly. Did you remove it and test it?
Is this your experience with the Ultra, and only the Ultra?
If my bypass is opening and closing like a fiddlers elbow when cold the pressure across the filter is exceeding the bypass setting meaning its not flowing properly. What am I missing here?
I was talking generally when I said "By people ..."
How do you know your bypass valve is operating correctly. Did you remove it and test it?
Is this your experience with the Ultra, and only the Ultra?
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