Does anyone not believe in 0w-20?

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
I would rather use the examples of the millions of vehicles racking up billions of miles as a testament to how well xW-20 protects.
They are all doing it in parallel, so there's no "billions" in reference to longevity.
I was speaking cumulatively, as in if 1 million cars each do 100,000 miles for a total of 100,000,000,000 miles. xW-20 has been mainstream for how long now--fifteen years or so? Yet, here we are fifteen years after the fact and countless (certainly millions) of cars have used it and yet save for the odd design issue here and there, (which would be a problem with any oil), they keep rolling along. Discussions in this forum will be interesting to say the least when xW-16 and xW-12 hit the market (which I have said more than once).
 
Originally Posted By: alcyon
I care, since I want to go a million miles on my vehicle.
Good luck with that. The odds are stacked astronomically against you and it will not be your choice of oils that prevents you from reaching 1MM miles, it will be the idiot that plows into you or the climate that eats the body away.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
But an absolutely shear stable SAE30 might mean more engine life... Still looking into that one elsewhere ...
More engine life than what? I have never seen this quantified anywhere. I have read statements that a 30 protects more than a 20, but I would say this could be measured in milliseconds from the point when a 20 would fail versus the point where a 30 would under the same conditions.


I have blown a brand new just broken in engine because of too thin an oil was spec by Honda and so did a lot of other riders on that bike. I never blew one up running a grade or even 3 thicker.
Honda quickly changed the spec with a TSB to 10w40, 10w50 or 10w60 in that engine after enough of them littered their dealerships service dept with blown engines running spec xw30.
With no other modifications the replacement engines running thicker oil had zero lubrication issues. Does the thicker oil protect better? For me that's more than proof that it does.
Are we talking about automobiles or motorcycles? If the latter, I retract my statement. If the former, it still stands.


Motorcycle but sorry I don't see what difference it makes in this case. This was a DOHC, liquid cooled inline 4. The engine was running at high RPM for an extended period (450km into a 600km trip only stopping for fuel) when it let go.
The point is the oil was not up to the job of protecting the engine at high speed/RPM and the thicker oil is.

xw20 oils are basically hybrid and very light duty oils for for engines under stress an oil with an HTHS of 3.5 or above is better suited.
Even almighty xw20 user Toyota specs Elf HTX 825 10W-60 in the TMG GT86 CS if the engine is going to be run hard, they dont spec a xw30 or 10w50 but a 10w60 in a car that is equipped with a large oil cooler. Now if that's not proof I don't know what is.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Motorcycle but sorry I don't see what difference it makes in this case. This was a DOHC, liquid cooled inline 4. The engine was running at high RPM for an extended period (450km into a 600km trip only stopping for fuel) when it let go.
I see a huge difference between an automobile engine that rarely sees anything over 3-5K RPM versus a motorcycle engine that can or is seeing 7-10K RPM for a sustained period of time. xW-20 is not a one size fits all oil; even my Brute Force 750 specifies xW-40. Crazy that a high performance motorcycle would specify xW-20--right oil for the application is key and it would seem like they made a mistake in specifying that oil.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Motorcycle but sorry I don't see what difference it makes in this case. This was a DOHC, liquid cooled inline 4. The engine was running at high RPM for an extended period (450km into a 600km trip only stopping for fuel) when it let go.
I see a huge difference between an automobile engine that rarely sees anything over 3-5K RPM versus a motorcycle engine that can or is seeing 7-10K RPM for a sustained period of time. xW-20 is not a one size fits all oil; even my Brute Force 750 specifies xW-40. Crazy that a high performance motorcycle would specify xW-20--right oil for the application is key and it would seem like they made a mistake in specifying that oil.


I agree xw-20 is not a one size fits all. Yet there are a lot of vehicles on the road with their owners manuals saying 5w20 is the only oil they can use.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Trav
Motorcycle but sorry I don't see what difference it makes in this case. This was a DOHC, liquid cooled inline 4. The engine was running at high RPM for an extended period (450km into a 600km trip only stopping for fuel) when it let go.
I see a huge difference between an automobile engine that rarely sees anything over 3-5K RPM versus a motorcycle engine that can or is seeing 7-10K RPM for a sustained period of time. xW-20 is not a one size fits all oil; even my Brute Force 750 specifies xW-40. Crazy that a high performance motorcycle would specify xW-20--right oil for the application is key and it would seem like they made a mistake in specifying that oil.
I agree xw-20 is not a one size fits all. Yet there are a lot of vehicles on the road with their owners manuals saying 5w20 is the only oil they can use.
No argument there, but how many of those engines are having problems with xW-20? I would opine that problems are few and far between. Otherwise, we would see a rash of it with the internet amplification that takes place these days.
 
Quote:
1. 1996 owners manual (and all up to 1999) spec 5w-30.
2. 2000-2002 owners manual spec 5W-20.

Sure, but the thread is about 0W-20 oil, which I don't think was ever specced for the Fords, and may not have existed in the early 1990s when they first started making the current engines. I too kept running 5W-30 when they back specced the cars to 5W-20, but the main reason was that another car in my fleet specced 5W-30 and with its pushrod engine I didn't want to take any chances with a lighter lube. I like to keep things simple if I can--one oil for the fleet of cars--my motorcycle and boat make things complicated enough!

Anyway, is there a fuel-economy reason that manufacturer's in the USA have moved towards 0W-20 oils? Absolutely! Have they back specced cars and trucks? Yes! Did they do it blindly, not worrying about wear on engines and not testing? No! I know that Ford did a lot more testing than anyone on BITOG will ever do before they changed the spec, and I know that oils have improved a lot in recent years. Comparing a 1995 5W-20 oil with a 2016 5W-20 or an 0W-20 would help to explain why this is doable.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Most 10W minerals COULD be sold as a 10W16 under the new J300...yep, multigrade, but still monograde.

All those points are true. But, would there be enough of a fuel economy benefit during the warmup testing? The high VI 0w-20 options we see, while a bit bizarre, do have the high VI, low HTHS, and good MRV numbers. So, despite what we think of the grades or the viscometrics, they're doing what the OEMs want, and that want isn't satisfied by a monograde. And, would OEMs be satisfied with a 10w-XX? At least in North America, most aren't. Of course, in my climate, I wouldn't be.

The allowing of the 16 grades won't necessarily change a whole lot. They'll still produce oils with a certain expectation of fuel economy test results. And, how many companies would want to produce something like the Ravenol example. Might it be too expensive? If not, great.

As to grading and SAE J300 in general, I don't know if we'll see the huge changes we'd like to see. There are a lot of legacy applications to cover, of course, and the general public has enough trouble as it is already. It's problematic for those outside of BITOG-type knowledge to know about the difference between a 10w-30 HDEO which is closer in HTHS to the 10w-30 they might have used many moons ago, versus the ILSAC 10w-30 they find on the shelf.
 
I believe in 0w20. It exists. Does a fine job too. My gripe is more with the pricing and selection than the spec of oil. My Xw20 fleet has over a 1,000,000 combined miles (mostly on 5w20) without a major engine item.

As for fuel economy... folks realize that the US has the least stringent fuel economy standards out of any market with fuel economy regs? All this talk about "other markets" and the US being forced into thinner is a bunch of malarkey. Never thought that other markets might spec something else because the distribution network (and pricepoint) could limit options?

Use whatever you want. Don't gripe. Have a warranty? Well, that is your own first-world problem.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
But an absolutely shear stable SAE30 might mean more engine life... Still looking into that one elsewhere ...
More engine life than what? I have never seen this quantified anywhere. I have read statements that a 30 protects more than a 20, but I would say this could be measured in milliseconds from the point when a 20 would fail versus the point where a 30 would under the same conditions.


Milliseconds? I guess, if we're talking billions of milliseconds. Can't say which of the 2 oils would lead to longer engine life for any specific make/model/usage of car. One either thin or thick would be be noticeably better (ie by 5-20%). I'd wager that the difference due to the oil alone (all other possible variables ruled out) would run into months of additional engine life, maybe even 1-2 years or more. That means being able to drive the car economically for at least 200K-350K miles. Since zero outside variables WITH that kind of mileage will rarely happen.....we'll likely never know.
 
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
That means being able to drive the car economically for at least 200K-350K miles.
But this already happens with engines running xW-20, right? There are plenty of them that have ran this many miles and more--just look at the Ford Modulars in taxis, police vehicles, etc. I put 160K on a Ford Modular running xW20 (5W-20 for the first 100K and then 0W-20 for the next 60K) and 45% of those miles were towing 8-9K and I extended the OCIs after 100K for up to 17K. The only issue I had was a rear main seal that starting leaking at 20K which was improperly installed at the factory. Otherwise, it was oil/filters/gas/tires (normal maintenance). While some would say I had better luck than most, I would counter with I believe it to be fairly normal--otherwise we would be hearing about it. Anyway, these threads rarely come to any conclusion(s) and are doomed to be revisited every few months or so.
11.gif
 
I have some issues with 0W20 in GDI engines that experience excessive fuel dilution. In most other applications that spec it its fine.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
That means being able to drive the car economically for at least 200K-350K miles.
But this already happens with engines running xW-20, right? There are plenty of them that have ran this many miles and more--just look at the Ford Modulars in taxis, police vehicles, etc. I put 160K on a Ford Modular running xW20 (5W-20 for the first 100K and then 0W-20 for the next 60K) and 45% of those miles were towing 8-9K and I extended the OCIs after 100K for up to 17K. The only issue I had was a rear main seal that starting leaking at 20K which was improperly installed at the factory. Otherwise, it was oil/filters/gas/tires (normal maintenance). While some would say I had better luck than most, I would counter with I believe it to be fairly normal--otherwise we would be hearing about it. Anyway, these threads rarely come to any conclusion(s) and are doomed to be revisited every few months or so.
11.gif



These thick vs thin threads come around a couple times a week, it seems. And as you said,"rarely come to any conclusion".
 
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Quote:
1. 1996 owners manual (and all up to 1999) spec 5w-30.
2. 2000-2002 owners manual spec 5W-20.

Sure, but the thread is about 0W-20 oil, which I don't think was ever specced for the Fords, and may not have existed in the early 1990s when they first started making the current engines. I too kept running 5W-30 when they back specced the cars to 5W-20, but the main reason was that another car in my fleet specced 5W-30 and with its pushrod engine I didn't want to take any chances with a lighter lube. I like to keep things simple if I can--one oil for the fleet of cars--my motorcycle and boat make things complicated enough!

Anyway, is there a fuel-economy reason that manufacturer's in the USA have moved towards 0W-20 oils? Absolutely! Have they back specced cars and trucks? Yes! Did they do it blindly, not worrying about wear on engines and not testing? No! I know that Ford did a lot more testing than anyone on BITOG will ever do before they changed the spec, and I know that oils have improved a lot in recent years. Comparing a 1995 5W-20 oil with a 2016 5W-20 or an 0W-20 would help to explain why this is doable.


I used M1 5-20 in the late 70's and in engines calling for 10-30-40. No problems.
 
Again,
we still don't know viscometrically what the HTHS (i.e. actual protection of the M1 5W20 was)...That was in the period when 5W was defined by parameters like pour point, and High Shear Viscometry wasn't known/used.

It's likely given where it started that M1 5W20 in the 70s was more like Redline's in term of HTHS, which would have placed it around the minimum for 10W30 and 10W40 when HTHS DID start being used.
 
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