Castrol Australia and ZDDP

[SR5]

I don't know if this has been posted before (it probably has), but I just found it.

http://www.jaguarhunter.org.au/Technical_Pages/Modern_Engine_Oils.htm

It's an article on engine oils from a Jag web site, and it appears the person who wrote it worked for Castrol Australia.

I was looking for information about the Zinc / Phos levels on Castrol oils. It suggests all the Edge oils in Australia use the 1000 ppm (0.10 %) Phos limit for the Edge oils. This is probably why the Edge 5W-30 A3/B4 is API SL (not SN).

It's not mentioned, but the very new, full synthetic Magnatec 5W-30 is A3/B4 and API SN. I would suggest this is using the 800ppm Phos limit and that is why it is rated SN. This makes sense to me, as the Edge 5W-30 (SL & MB 229.5, BMW LL-01, etc) and the Mganatec 5W-30 (SN but no Euro OEM specs) are going for two different markets.

 

[dave1251]

I believe the phosphorus levels will also be at 0.10 % to 0.12% with A3/B4 cert. The .08 limit is restricted to GF-5/SN

 

[SR5]

Castrol Edge 5W-30 is ACEA A3/B4 and API SL.
Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 is ACEA A3/B4 and API SN.

Both are full synthetics.

According to my 2012 ACEA sequences, there is no phosphorus limit for the Ax/By oil, the only requirement is that their % is reported. I believe only API has phosphorus limits and then only for the ILSAC grades. That is why a 0W-40 can have 1000 ppm phosphorus and be API SN, it's not an ILSAC grade. But a 5W-30 with the same 1000 ppm phosphorus will be API SL, as it is an ILSAC grade with a 800 ppm limit.

The above Edge 5W-30 A3/B4 (API SL) is the common Australian grade. The American Edge 5W-30 is different. Your Edge 5W-30 is a ILSAC GF-5, SN and A5/B5, which is a completely different oil.

The ACEA A3/B4 does have a SAPS limit, it must be between 1.0 and 1.6 % (inclusive). I believe the SAPS limit is affected many things including the ZDDP and the detergent & TBN level. Happy to be corrected on what oil additives affect the SAPS level.

 

[Garak]

I haven't seen the Magnatec A3/B4 yet, or much Magnatec yet, outside of 60 litre kegs. But, yes, our Castrol Edge 5w-30 A3/B4 is also SL.

 

[SR5]

The guy makes some interesting comments, like:


However most oils from the 1950’s and 60’s had lower Phosphorus content than even the latest passenger car engine oils, i.e. it was typically 0.06% which is even lower than the 0.08% limit set by API SM.

ZDDP is a multifunctional additive; it has powerful antioxidant effect in addition to the antiwear characteristics. The size and type of the alkyl group attached to the Thio phosphate within the molecule influences the relative antiwear antioxidant balance of ZDDP additive. Over time Castrol have used modified ZDDP’s that are more intended for wear performance and substituted other materials to boost antioxidant performance of our engine oils. So looking at Zinc and/or Phosphorus levels alone does not tell the full story in terms of wear protection.

There has been discussion about using diesel engine oils instead of passenger car engine oils. Some of these do currently contain higher levels of Phosphorus, ZDDP, than passenger car qualified to API SL or SM. They have higher Phosphorus to help minimise soot related wear.

The higher level of Phosphorus is not a guarantee of satisfactory wear protection. As I said earlier, wear performance is related to the particular ZDDP being used. Also many of the diesel oils with higher Phosphorus also contain higher levels of detergent and dispersant which compete for surface area with the ZDDP which can reduce its effectiveness. During the development of the current API SM engine tests, a high phosphorus diesel engine oil was run in a flat tappet, push rod engine test and it failed the wear requirements with worse results than most low Phosphorus passenger car oils.

The first few minutes of operation for new cam and tappets are very important. Run-in is important for good long service life. Castrol have put considerable effort into understanding valve train lubrication. Research has shown one of the highest if not highest wear mode for a cam and tappets is while the engine is at idle. Running an engine at medium speed, say 2,000 to 4,000 rpm generates much less metal-to-metal contact between cam and tappet than at engine idle.

When running in new cams and tappets avoid idling as much as possible in the first 30 minutes to hour of operation. Make sure the cam and tappets are pre lubed with Moly grease and oil. Try to keep engine oil temperature above 80°C. Driving the vehicle or running the engine under load achieves that most quickly. The cam and tappets should be run-in by 250 to 500 km.

Also ZDDP is temperature activated so running the engine at low oil temperature also accelerates cam and tappet wear.

If a full synthetic engine oil is preferred then our Castrol Edge 0W-40 or Edge Sport 10W-60 is recommended. Again these are formulated to 0.10% Phosphorus maximum and can be used with flat tappet followers with confidence the same as Edge Sport 25W-50.

 

[SR5]

The guy who wrote it is: Neil McTavish – Australian Automotive Technology Manager Castrol.

I cut and pasted a fair bit above, as not everybody follows links, and links don't always work into the future.

The article is a little old, as he refers to API SM, but I think he makes many valid points that are still important today.

 

[Garak]

Yes, those are good points. They've been brought up here, before, too. I've heard the argument against HDEOs for the elevated ZDDP, and we do know it's not necessarily the same type of ZDDP we see elsewhere. I'd be interested to see what type of low phosphorus oils were compared against the HDEO that failed the test, and what became of the HDEO. Obviously, any CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN HDEO must pass the bulk of the SM standards, aside from being permitted greater phosphorus if it's a 30 grade HDEO and certified CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN, rather than SM or SN or SM/GF-4 or SN/GF-5.

 

[SR5]

Yeah he didn't really name names when it came to the HDEO and PCMO comparison. You would expect a dual rated, mixed fleet oil such as a CI-4/SL to perform as well as a regular PCMO in wear tests. I suspect he was using a "truck only" diesel engine oil, but he doesn't exactly say.

The question is, does a dual rated - mixed fleet oil, such as CI-4/SL, CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN perform better or the same as a regular SM/GF-4 or SN/GF-5 PCMO.

 

[Garak]

Yep, one never knows what one could be comparing, and that's on both sides of the equation, as it were, even with the supposed low phosphorus engine oils. Was the low phosphorus gasoline engine oil really an ILSAC 30, or was it a 40 with different limits?

As for your question, well, that can be pretty darned hard to say without a bunch of real, rigorously done testing. You can always have something strange like an older Chevy small block, and throw all the ZDDP you want at the thing and still have it eat cams. I generally wouldn't worry much about most CJ-4/SM lubes. For that matter, one probably shouldn't worry much about most SN/GF-5 gasoline lubes either, assuming the viscosity is where it should be. Those who do have reason to worry (i.e. high valve spring pressures in a non-stock application) might be considering different lubricants altogether, anyhow.

My old F-150 isn't likely to benefit a bunch from something like Joe Gibbs (or even VR1) over anything readily available on the shelf. That's certainly not the case for everyone, though.

Unfortunately, the marketing people from some of the boutique companies are not helpful. They would have us believe that a 160 hp stock Chev 305 needs $20 a litre Joe Gibbs to protect the cam and lifters.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I don't know if this has been posted before (it probably has), but I just found it.

http://www.jaguarhunter.org.au/Technical_Pages/Modern_Engine_Oils.htm

It's an article on engine oils from a Jag web site, and it appears the person who wrote it worked for Castrol Australia.

I was looking for information about the Zinc / Phos levels on Castrol oils. It suggests all the Edge oils in Australia use the 1000 ppm (0.10 %) Phos limit for the Edge oils.


Bear in mind the context of that post - it is about using modern oils in old vehicles in Australia, presumably to shed some light on the "you can't use new oil in old cars" myth.

There are a few EDGE products listed for Australia, including two that are ACEA C3 compliant, which means they will have a 900 ppm maximum limit on phosphorus (the 0W-40 also has API SN, but there's no phos limit for this viscosity grade in SN).